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In Reply to: RE: "I don't care about accuracy" posted by Analog Scott on July 28, 2015 at 20:54:09
I, for one, never said that "accuracy" applies to the evaluation of live music in any way, shape, or form. Maybe it does, but I never said that it does. I'm beginning to think that maybe you are starting to go off on a strange sort of tangent here, though.
I might *judge* a live event (or a recording) according to both "subjective" and "objective" standards, but almost none of this has anything to do with the judgment of "accuracy" (to my mind) - unless there's a question about the "accurate" reading of a musical score(?).
Oh well...
Nevertheless, it might be worth remembering that (in some ways at least) a band of musicians might not sound "subjectively good" if they do not hold themselves to certain "objective standards" - standards that some might view as being related to any one of various *types* of "accuracy". But in general, the word "accuracy" does not come to mind when I listen to live music.
The word "accuracy" mostly comes to mind when I listen to recordings. Remember, I try not to "judge" the two things - music and recordings - in the same exact manner. They are somewhat different from each other in some important ways, I believe.
Follow Ups:
You still have yet to answer any questions about what standards you use to judge the sound quality of live music.
You also have yet to make any logical argument as to why live music and recorded music should be judged by different standards when it comes to sound quality.
Well then, let me see here...
I would say that when the room and the music being played (either in live sound or in hifi playback) interact in a complimentary and harmonious way, then the music is clearly heard, tonal balance seems smooth and well-balanced, and overall "sound quality" is at it's optimum in such a scenario.
That said, the sound we hear on a recording is a mixture of "real" sounding ingredients and the residue of "the art of recording" - all stuffed together in one swell package. It should be judged as if it is referring to something besides itself - not completely perhaps, but for the most part.
Live music, however, is simply *reality*. It can be judged on it's own merits alone. It's "sound quality" will vary somewhat at different points in the venue, but I think that most would agree that clarity and intelligibility combined with smooth and balanced room tone constitute *good* live sound.
Simply put, recorded sound should each be judged as if it was closely related to live music while being significantly different from it in some ways.
These are my beliefs. And, my beliefs are based upon actual experiences (see above) which I consider to be relevant to the here and now of this discussion.
Re-read my posts again. I believe that I've basically said or implied all of this stuff, at least once or twice before.
Actually this is the first time you answered the question as to what standards you use to judge live music.
"I would say that when the room and the music being played (either in live sound or in hifi playback) interact in a complimentary and harmonious way, then the music is clearly heard, tonal balance seems smooth and well-balanced, and overall "sound quality" is at it's optimum in such a scenario."
That is basically a breakdown of your personal aesthetics. In short you judge live music by whether or not it sounds good to you, good being a set of qualities you describe above. there is no reference other than your aesthetics.
Great. I'll by that.
But you don't really answer WHY audio playback should be judged by a reference. You simply restate that you think it should.
But this was progress.
I think that have "really" answered all of your questions so far, several times over perhaps. Everything has been clearly implied if not stated outright, over and over again.That said, everything we do, every choice we make, etc.., *INVOLVES* personal beliefs or aesthetics, of course. But you almost seem to be inordinately hung up on this idea of *free* or disembodied aesthetics. Anyone who believes that a good recording is not a reference (and therefore deserving of honor and respect in it's own right) is simply not into "hifi".
The "fidelity" part of "hi-fidelity" is supposed to refer to the existence of some definite and real things, as Holt points out. I agree with most of what Holt says here, and any disagreements I might have with him are basically insignificant ones, IMO. He and I basically blood brothers, I think, although he himself might have been hesitant to define our spiritual relationship as such when he was alive.
I think that aesthetics normally grow out of relatively "objective" sensual observations. We "know" or remember what real live music sounds like to us once we listen to it. And I dare say that most of us build our systems in honor of that which we recognize as "the sound of music" on decent recordings.
I think that, with the help of a good system, it is possible to hear good recordings pretty much as they were meant to be heard. Maybe we'll never know EXACTLY how a good recording is supposed to sound, but we can get *very close* to that goal with the help of research, practice, and patience.
If you set up a good pair of speakers in an appropriately sized room the way they are intended to be set up and you play a good recording, your chances of hearing that recording as it was meant to be heard are pretty high, I'd say. But, following such a procedure would involve some *trust* on your part, and I feel that you probably mistrust almost anything GIVEN at this point in your audiophile career.
All that remains to be done (after we have taken steps to ensure that good recordings can be heard pretty much as they were meant to be heard) is some final tweaking of the system so that it sounds *listenable* as well as "accurate". Doing this does not mean that something very close to "objective listening" hasn't been accomplished on my part, though.
Edits: 07/29/15 07/29/15 07/29/15 07/29/15
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