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In Reply to: RE: Koetsu Black Goldline retip - which stylus profile? posted by flood2 on April 27, 2015 at 14:49:42
>>I'm not a fan of the Shibata profile<<
Curious why? Of the many stylus profiles I've owned, I'm not certain I've ever had a Shibata. My current stylus is a FGII, similar to the Ortofon Replicant, which I much like ... but with my next cart, I've been pondering an Ortofon Black Cadenza with Shibata or the Bronze with Replicant.
I'm interested in your experience with the Shibata.
Follow Ups:
If you're asking if I am speaking from personal experience with the Shibata then...no.
To me, the design has significant flaws that make it inferior to more modern designs therefore I have not and will not waste any $ on choosing it as a retip option (which Garrot Bros do) given the superior alternatives.
The curving contact line is the primary reason why I wouldn't choose it. Modern designs achieve a straight line and therefore SRA is consistent in the groove (assuming proper compliance match with the arm) which is important for large amplitude cuts involving out of phase information. Secondly, depending on which Shibata "version" is supplied, the bearing radius is somewhat smaller than modern designs which increases the rate of wear due to increased pressure. The minor radius is also larger therefore resolution is reduced.
Using the AT33Sa as an example, given that a MicroLine on the PTGII can be had for similar or less money, there is no way I would drop money on an inferior design (especially since it is MORE expensive than the PTGII!) Hence my beef with the Shibata design remains entirely theoretically (and financially) driven..
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
I've heard the At33 shibata and liked it very much, although its softer type high-freq and overall smooth presentation seemed obvious to my ears.
The Ortofon line is a bit more confusing, in terms of stylus and cantilever shapes/materials. The Cadenza line for example, the top model Black uses a Shibata w/boron cant, while the 2nd in line, the Bronze, uses the Replicant w/alum cant. The same applies for the MM Black/Bronze, and with the Quintet Black, while the Quintet Bronze offers a "fine line".
Here is a quote from a Hi-Fi World review (MM Black/Bronze):
"All this being the case, and taking into account the similarity between the Bronze and Black in measurement, I was expecting the Black to sound like the Bronze, but with better differentiated treble from improved stylus geometry. So I was taken aback by the difference between the two. The 2M Black has a silky smooth presentation with no glare or treble emphasis at all. In fact, its Shibata tip is, compared to Goldring's Fritz Geiger S, relatively mild in its treble delivery - and very Kontrapunkt-like too. Suddenly, with the Black in the RB300, music started to flow with the liquid smoothness and sophistication I am used to from my Kontrapunkt b. I ran through the same list of albums mentioned so far and all slid by as masterful performances."
In the above models, Ortofon most expensive versions use the Shibata, and the 2nd from top; the Replicant (except the Quintet Bronze)
Yet, (and this is where it get a tad confusing) ... if you look at Orts highest-end models, they exclusively use the highly polished Replicant, w/no Shibata alternatives.
Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with a cartridge being tuned for "voicing" reasons. This hobby is all about personal preference. However, to me, it is just that I think the design "foibles" of the Shibata tip lead to a more limited technical capability and I personally don't believe that the sweeter sound can be due to the tip entirely, although the tip may dictate certain mechanical characteristics that result in the desired voicing. In other words, I don't believe that the stylus itself has a "sound". The sound is the result of so many factors such as surface polish, cantilever material/length/VTA, damping, SRA etc etc. Unless the Shibata is being exploited specifically for the sonic distortions (or whatever you want to call it) due to the technical ramifications of the curving line.
Curiousity recently got the better of me and I finally bought an AT150MLx to compare with an AT440ML. I've optimised the phono stage load for each and my white noise traces show a flat response with both to within 1dB. Yet, the 150MLx sounds so much smoother and, dare I say it, sweeter for want of a better word. The AT440ML sounds somewhat coarse by comparison. The stylus profile design (apart from the polish) can't be the reason for the radical difference since they are the same profile. Although tip mass is likely lower in the 150MLx.
In other words, I don't know why Ortofon couldn't make a "Sweet" sounding Bronze using the same Replicant tip but on a Ruby or Boron cantilever and call it a Black! The Ortofon lineup (with the curious Black models) is where the "voicing" seems to be most obvious and I think the AT33Sa must be in response to Ortofon's approach. Who knows, this may bug me enough to buy one just to see .... (LPGear seems to have the AT33Sa for less than Juki on Ebay)
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
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