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In Reply to: RE: REVIEW: Technics by Panasonic KAB SL-1200Mk.II Turntables posted by Kristian on March 24, 2015 at 07:54:10
I own two turntables. One is a fifteen thousand dollar Sota Millennia Vacuum with SME V and the other is a KAB modified SL-1200 Mk2 with Applied Fidelity platter bearing. I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the modified Technics SL-1200. I have compared both using the same cartridge and phono stage, and the SL-1200 sounds remarkably similar to the Sota. There is no question that the Sota/SME sounds a little better because of a lower noise floor and slightly greater transparency, but for the difference in price, the SL-1200 is quite amazing. I could easily live with the sound of my SL-1200 without ever wanting more.
Best regards,
John Elison
Follow Ups:
Thanks, John.
I dropped out of here about four years ago when realizing the place has too many frustrated middle-aged+ men, once school jocks but now screaming keyboard plonkers venting their rage at both the dying of the light and feelings of having failed at life, shooting blindly at anything they see.
But, then there are also a few well-adjusted folks and even guys who have the professional knowledge and intellects to back up what they say.
That's where you come in. Your posts regarding the SL-1200 were what pushed me over the edge, especially in light of your long history here of no-nonsense commentary and BS-free attitude. I mean, who would seriously compare a Sota Millennia with an SL-1200? Whatever you said about that comparison *has* to be the truth.
My primary contact with AA over the last four years has been to check in about once per year and check your posts (any other subforum is nearly worthless), as you inevitable post cool things like charts, diagrams, close-up photos, and always with impenetrable logic and reason.
But, the piece de resistance was your awesome Mike Lavigne challenge, which, after 35 years in and around audio with 10 of those at a high-end dealer, is one of the greatest audio-related tests I know of. Talk about speaking truth to power.
The upshot is that this place is damned lucky to have a feller like you posting. Thanks for all the work you obviously do to promulgate objectivity and reason in a hobby nearly destroyed by thoughtlessness and charlatanism.
Best,
Kristian
is that good?
I think he means "unassailable" logic, unable to be attacked or criticized.
i only know what he says. ;-)
> > But, the piece de resistance was your awesome Mike Lavigne challenge, which, after 35 years in and around audio with 10 of those at a high-end dealer, is one of the greatest audio-related tests I know of. < <
Awesome indeed, I STILL have those recordings ...
John's rips of his SOTA/SME & MikeL Rockport, mastered like a pro.
In fact, some of his 45rpm Rockport/Colabri cuts still sound truly impressive within my system. Very wide bandwidth, very dimensional. John's SOTA/SME cuts played within a much smaller sonic window; but that expectation was never based in reality, despite John's, claim otherwise.
I don't know what you mean by reality, but it happened. That's about as real as it gets. Furthermore, you weren't even there so how can you judge the reality of the experience.
> > I don't know what you mean by reality, but it happened. That's about as real as it gets. Furthermore, you weren't even there so how can you judge the reality of the experience. < <
... these rips were all one needed to hear the differences, that's why you distributed them as your trump card.
It all went poop on you when you claimed you "won", and far more telling of a fairytale saga ... you claimed your own system rips "as good" or better. Certainly that proved nothing more than a false prophet within my system.
John, let the parade begin ... I certainly don't intend to rain on your "appreciation" day festivities by furthermore ... proving you a hypocrite.
John Ellison is one of the most intelligent people I've met in forty years of participating in this hobby. He has an engineer's mentality with strong opinions as well as a good ear. I've learned much from him even though we are not in complete agreement in every instance.
-Wendell
enjoy the parade ...
Now I understand. You truly don't have a clue, do you?
deflect reality as you may, perhaps Mike has a different opinion on what "really" happened...
"as far as the JE challenge, i'm not going there. JE did a big-time flip on his written perspective compared to what he heard when he visited me. when he did that I lost any desire to discuss what happened."
nt
Here is what happened: Mike Lavigne challenged me . I accepted his challenge immediately and then he decided to make me wait more than a year before getting on with it. During that year I got nothing but ridicule from a number of inmates for being so stupid as to expect a digital copy of vinyl to sound anything like real vinyl. Hey, I didn't challenge anybody -- Mike initiated the challenge and then finked out for more than a year leaving me holding the bag. What kind of character does a person have that conducts his affairs like that? Pretty poor character in my opinion!
Then Mike finally finds the time to complete his challenge and he sends me an airline ticket with a six hour layover in Chicago. I couldn't change the ticket without paying for a new one. What kind of a person would do that?
Finally, I got to Seattle and I made a CD-R of the LPs that Mike selected and I gave it to his Seattle audio club. They conducted the challenge and I wasn't even in the room. I didn't want to be in the room because I didn't want anyone to say I influenced the outcome. Mike failed his own challenge all by himself .
Those are the facts. I was there and I lived them. The only thing you're upset about is that your buddy Mike Lavigne can't cut the mustard when the pressure is on. So be it! Such is life.
Get over it!
Jeez, we've been thru this before. Ya know I've never had any contact with Mike - he's hardly my buddy. I sure as shit had nothing vested in the outcome of that episode.
No matter how many times you post about this it doesn't change the fact the guy correctly identified 5 outta 6. He may have "lost" according to some rule you guys stipulated, but as far as I'm concerned he proved his point.
I think the one who needs to "get over it" is you.
In other words you weren't even there? Yet, for some odd reason you feel the need to reintroduce one of Mike Lavigne's most embarrassing moments every three to four months on a regular basis and you tell me to "get over it!" LOL!
You are the idiot that can't get over it and you weren't even there.
Mike Lavigne set all the rules. I had no say whatsoever in setting one single rule. Mike Lavigne picked every musical selection and decided exactly what audio components were to be used. I actually wanted to use a Pass Labs X1 line stage for its remote switching capabilities and Mike refused to allow it. Mike made me wait more than one year for the challenge to occur and he made me wait six hours in Chicago on the way to Seattle. The whole challenge was orchestrated by Mike Lavigne for his own amusement and he failed his own challenge all by himself. Yet, you make him relive his most embarrassing moment every three to four months on a regular basis. I'm sure Mike Lavigne really loves you. LOL!
At any rate, I really love you. LOL! Thanks for you thoughtfulness! ;-)
Is it true that he nailed 5 out of 6 passes?
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."
Actually, he would have nailed 6 out of 6 if we had used his thirty thousand dollar Meitner CD player. My CD-R didn't sound at all like vinyl when played on his Meitner. Since his rules allowed me to use my own CD player, that's when I connected my old Audio Alchemy and discovered just how accurate my CD sounded. Mike told me that his Meitner revealed how my CD-R truly sounded and that my Audio Alchemy just couldn't resolve enough detail to sound different from vinyl. I really got a laugh out of that one.
Best regards,
John Elison
not certain your motive, considering it's all archived.
I didn't know anything about this until yesterday, let alone that it was all archived. It also seemed easier to ask a question directly than research the archives. It's pretty cool the guy was able to discern the differences. I'll read the archives to find out what he attributes the differences to.
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."
> > It's pretty cool the guy was able to discern the differences. < <
Cool perhaps, but certainly not remotely surprising either, at least to anyone I know who's recorded or ripped high quality LP> 16/44 transfers.
Even I think I'd have trouble discerning 100% of my own recordings in direct comparison, even though I went thru the recording phase (much listening) and am very well aware of the sonic differences between the copy played back on my CDP vs TT.
Let me provide another example: moons ago, an acquaintance would arrive at my house so he could spend a few hours listening to my system. He loved it, and this bud didn't even own a stereo, never mind being an audiophile. The thing was, he absolutely refused to entertain my digital alternatives. Once I turned to digital, he lost all interest. It was actually a good way to make him leave.
Anyway, a few years later, after I got my first CD recorder, he came over with some of his "audiophile" buds, and demanded the same analog experience. But after a few LPs, I pulled the old switcheroo using a LP-CDR; nobody noticed any "digital" intrusion.
That gave me a chuckle.
I've downloaded a few needle drops. I have the Mirror Spock version of the UHQR Sgt. Pepper and DSOTM. They are native 24/96 files, and they sound great.
For me, digital copies always seem to soften the sound. Notes don't decay like they can on vinyl. DSD seems to retain those nuances to a greater extent.
I've noticed that JE is now making DSD recordings of his records. So much for not being able to hear differences at 16/44.
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."
> I've downloaded a few needle drops.
If you can handle 24/96 FLAC, Michael Fremer posted some needle drops comparing different MM cartridges on a VPI Traveler turntable not too long ago. The interesting thing is that for kicks he threw in a recording of his ridiculously expensive Continuum Caliburn turntable with Ortofon Anna cartridge. I don't know if these FLAC files are still available for download, but the thing I found most interesting is that the vast majority of people who listened to them felt the VPI Traveler sounded better than the Continuum Caliburn.
> > I've downloaded a few needle drops. I have the Mirror Spock version of the UHQR Sgt. Pepper and DSOTM. They are native 24/96 files, and they sound great. < <
Share / trade ?
> > For me, digital copies always seem to soften the sound. Notes don't decay like they can on vinyl. DSD seems to retain those nuances to a greater extent. < <
I used to think 16/44 evil, when asked to record a certain recording for a friend years ago (to determine recorded sibilance vs mistracking) I flat out refused to consider digital, because everything I'd heard on CD to that point couldn't capture what even a modest turntable could routinely do.
In other words, I was blaming 16/44 ENTIRELY based on poor mastering techniques, and dragging down the format with it (Teresa anyone). My first recorder was a commercial Sony. A POS in terms of build quality, and certainly not at all transparent in terms of recording quality. It's meters were so slow and inaccurate, I'd end up clipping dynamic peaks without knowing it until after recording. However, despite not being close to "perfect", it was still obvious that 16/44 rips captured the majority of my rigs capabilities. And even more surprisingly, they were often head-over-heals better (certainly more dynamic) than the commercial CD release.
My current profession Sony W66, significantly closes that gap between source and copy. In direct comparison to my TT, it's just like you stated, dimensional data (depicting space & time, like a fading note) is curtailed, and the image as a whole is shrunk a touch. But note, this is also very much LP dependent, dimensional depth of field clues are not nearly as apparent (or important) with the vast majority of studio recordings.
When it comes to instrumental impact, perceived layering of the recorded venue, and especially wide bandwidth/frequency extreme resolution, very little difference if any exist.
However, I will also add this; my CDP offers above average wide bandwidth and transparency. It also is one of the rare players I've had in my system which can give my TT a run for the money. In fact, given the same mastered software (especially if recorded originally in digital), they tend to sound identical.
Now that said, I'm not disputing the advantages of DSD, or hi-rez PCM for that matter. Advantages exist given the right circumstances, but considering the vastly increased file sizes, and the fact that anyone can replay WAV files on near any device, as a sharing tool, DSD is far too restrictive.
tb1
> considering the vastly increased file sizes, and the fact that anyone can replay WAV files on near any device,
> as a sharing tool, DSD is far too restrictive.Nearly every DAC being made today can convert DSD; otherwise, the DAC is not marketable. I bought an ifi Nano iDSD DAC for $189 that will convert up to DSD(128). Probably, the only audiophiles today that don't have DSD capability are diehard vinyl fanatics. The Oppo BDP-103 sells for $500 and plays just about everything digital including DSD files directly from a USB flash drive.
If you are serious about copying vinyl to digital, you might consider buying a TASCAM DA-3000 , which will record at nearly any digital resolution from 16/44 up to DSD(128) and it sells for $1000. TASCAM often has sale rebates and I bought mine for $800 from Sweetwater during one their rebate offers. The TASCAM DA-3000 also is a great sounding playback device for commercial DSD files because it accepts a USB flash drive for playback. It records only on SD and CF cards. I find its DAC to be one of the best sounding DACs for playing commercial DSD files up to DSD(128).
As far as file size and memory requirements are concerned, storage space is pretty cheap these days. I buy 4-TB external USB hard drives for $130 each.
Edits: 03/27/15
really?
John give your head a shake, please!
if a professional Sony is not "serious" enough for you, fine, but considering you've NEVER heard my rips, your advice reeks of pretentious "reality". (and we are aware of your "issues" there)
DSD, I have no interest, simply because the DSD requirement has never been fully established within my not so (big gulp) ... "serious" ... system.
tb1
Isn't it obvious? His motive is keep this thing going as long as possible.
Are we still having fun???
So tell me about that layover again...
NIAGRA FALLS!
Slowly I turned. Step by step. Inch by inch...
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."
no need to pile on, especially late to the party.
John, take care.
"....for some odd reason you feel the need to reintroduce one of Mike Lavigne's most embarrassing moments every three to four months on a regular basis...."
Below is a link to my Vinyl posts going back to April 2014. As you can see I posted *not one word* about that episode. A casual observer might conclude that you are either ill or just plain TOTALLY FULL OF SHIT.
doesn't seem to forget posting pictures of his SOTA/SME ad-nauseam ...
let me say here that he is one of the nicest guys I have met through this hobby.
I know nothing much about what went on between John (who also seems to be a nice guy, however "frank") and Mike, but Mike's character and demeanor could not possibly be an issue in the never ending debate, this audio version of Rashomon.
to defend Mike, his professional disposition (in this case) speaks volumes.
This was never a matter of who's the "nicer" guy, or more to the point: who "won" or "lost", it SHOULD'VE been a fun/educational exercise amongst peers.
If you consider the facts, they both proved correct ... JE proved a good 16/44 rip can represent a fine facsimile, while Mike proved differences exist.
It was actually a win/win situation, but ... it soon became apparent JE needed to "win" ... representing himself with clear animosity ... while Mike remained graciously restrained.
nt
Sheesh...I'm detecting a trend. Maybe if I was wearing a white lab coat while I typed that the Objectivists would take my observation more seriously.
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."
"big-time flip" ...
> > I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the modified Technics SL-1200. < <
Of course you do John ...
John, remember when you sent me your over-hyped KAB1200 rips which I shared (with your blessing) with a number of established audiophiles, some who also own a 1200/KAB1200, and not one single person thought your rips were anything close to the best they'd heard.
BTW, I still have them and many others for comparison, yours for the asking, just in case you require yet another reality check.
tb1
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