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In Reply to: RE: This is true. posted by Dave Pogue on December 18, 2014 at 12:43:20
There is no real "polarity" to the signal, in the conventional sense of the word.
Now, how do you guys know that the phase of DGG recordings is "inverted"? Maybe it's phase correct on the LP (in this case), and you just find you prefer the phase when it's inverted with respect to whatever is on the LP.
Follow Ups:
It sounds "right" when you switch to inverted polarity :-)
If you haven't heard a DG disc or tape that sounds right, now you know what to do. Of course this only works if your speakers are polarity-coherent and have minimal (or no) crossovers to confuse matters.
Honestly, I could never hear polarity changes myself until going with Gallo speakers.
I don't have a polarity switch and don't wanna f around changing spkr. wires from record to record. I don't hear what you & Stu hear with DG.
I have quite a few DG LP's that do not sound wrong to me. Tympani, basses, piano, pizz. strings - nothing lacks wallop nor sounds terribly thin on records like HvK/Berlin Beeth. 7th, HvK/Berlin Shoenberg's Trans. Fig. Night/Variations For Orch., Carlos Kleiber's Beeth. 5th and a number of other DG LP's I have. Isn't a tell tale sign that percussive attacks sound sorta muffled? I don't hear that on most of the DG's I own.
Guess my spkrs. don't qualify (they do have cross-overs), nor do my ears.
That's what I usually tell folks who can't tell the difference. As I said, I couldn't either for the longest time. Then when the Gallos "allowed" me to hear the difference, it was kinda fun for a while to listen and try to hear which was which, bearing in mind that many (most?) disks and tapes are in mixed polarity where the recording engineer didn't bother keeping things straight. Or intentionally played games during or after the fact.
It's a learned thing, after you hear it the first times. You come to hear the difference between the way your tenor sax sounds when it blows. As opposed to when it sucks. No offense.
Now that I've reverted back to the oldest Gallos ("Ultimates," circa 1996) my own ability to discern polarity changes has diminished a lot. This is either old age or the way the 4-ball Ultimates are wired -- at one point going from positive to negative between balls 2 and 3. I still think I can tell the difference but maybe I'm fooling myself.
In any case, except for the extreme examples (e.g., certain DGs), it's a very minor thing and not worth worrying about.
Speakers can have crossovers and still be phase coherent. There are several speaker manufacturers that make phase coherent speakers with crossovers. My Thiel CS3.7 speakers are supposedly phase coherent to ±10° but I haven't tried to hear polarity differences. I don't have a polarity switch in my present system so I would have to reverse the speaker cables.
In a previous system, I had a DAC with a polarity switch and I could never detect an audible difference, but I didn't have phase coherent speaker at the time. I also own the original Grado HP-1 headphones with polarity switches on each ear speaker, but I was never able to hear absolute polarity differences with them, either. Perhaps some people are not sensitive to polarity while others are.
Best regards,
John Elison
take the room out of the equation. It would be interesting to know whether those who can hear phase differences with certain LPs on certain speakers can also hear the same differences via headphones. Room acoustics can and do also alter phase perception, I think.
There is a reason that "time coherent" loudspeakers like those made by Green Mountain Audio have relatively narrow, focused dispersion patterns. The old "head in a vice" routine...
Edits: 12/19/14
Well, I could never hear a difference, but Joseph Grado claimed he could easily hear the difference with a live microphone feed. He said he installed the switches because he used headphones for recording and he was sensitive to absolute polarity when making live recordings. None of the other Grado headphones have polarity switched, so I guess John Grado doesn't feel the are necessary.
Happy Holidays,
John Elison
The ability to "easily hear" differences in polarity does not seem to be a prevalent trait, but a small minority of the our population is unusually sensitive to polarity.I wouldn't say that polarity is inaudible because I think that I can hear changes in polarity in some instances, but at the same time, it might be possible for me to train myself to alert to things that might ordinarily pass by unnoticed. Engineers and other obsessive-compulsive types might train themselves to become unusually alert to such things in the same way that white supremacists might train themselves to become unusually alert to variations in skin and eye color within a large crowd of people. Eagle eyes and Beagle ears have something in common, but to the eyes and ears of more easy-going creatures certain types of details simply aren't worth fretting over.
Edits: 12/19/14 12/19/14
I don't have a dog in this fight. I always felt blessed that I was not cursed with the ability to hear differences in absolute phase, but I also have entertained the possibility that my "disability" is due to the fact that I am a devoted fan of dipole speakers, for life. I don't doubt for a minute that others hear what I cannot hear.
Correct.
I don't doubt that others might hear what I cannot always hear, especially when I CAN hear some of the very same things under certain circumstances.
At the same time, after hanging around the audio boards for a number of years, I don't doubt that some people might be deliberately straining to hear minute details that that they might have ignored if they weren't intent on proving how acute their hearing is ("golden ears").
In other words, I don't exclude any possibility...
My modified Sound Lab ESLs are full-range and have no cross-over. So, if phase makes a difference that you and others can hear, then my hypothesis would be that dipolar speakers "fail" to convey phase-specificity. You should come over to my place some time; it would be very interesting to me if you can hear phase differences on my system.
Does anyone know of a case where one guy prefers phase at 0 and another prefers phase at 180, with the exact same source material and system, or is the preference for one phase vs the other universally the same among listeners who can hear differences at all?
There would have to be a solo instrument on the record and once digitally recorded with a phase correct recording chain you could look at the wave form.The first half wave, of the first wave form after silence, would be a positive going wave form if the record is phase correct.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 12/18/14 12/18/14
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