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I'm puzzled...what is the attraction of a Shibata profile? Ortofon are using it in their premium "Black" models in the respective MM and MC series, and now AT have joined the bandwagon with the AT33Sa....
WHY??!! Is it just cost? Compared to alternative line-contact designs it is extremely primitive especially with the curving scanning radius and greater scanning radius. A Stereohedron solves that problem with the symmetric cuts in all four quadrants to give a straight line on the scanning edge. That patent has also expired so I can't understand what the attraction is when the Shibata is technically inferior.
There was a discussion on this on the VinylEngine dating back to 2008 with a user also curious about the use of a Shibata tip on the Ortofon Jubilee. The only clue was "lower surface noise". Again, given the similarity in concept, the Stereohedron achieves the same and I would consider the straight line an improvement over a curved contact line.
Puzzling....
Anyone have further insight?
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
Follow Ups:
Although Van den Hul managed to patent his design in the Netherlands only! They were originally made by Fritz Geiger to his specifications, but they no longer manufacture them, having developed their own derivatives such as the FG70 and 80. Ortofon still use the former on the Blue model in their Cadenza MC series, while specifying their own Replicant (with a very long 100-micron contact line) in the next model up, and yet the Shibata on the Black (TOTR).They must have their reasons, one supposes! The Replicant is also featured on their three top cartridges (aside from the SPU series) including the fabulously expensive 'MC Anna'. It seems likely that price (for a certain level of performance) and availability in quantity both play a part in the choice of diamond in lower price-brackets.
Manufacturers like Ortofon then balance the individual qualities of the tip with the rest of the design to yield a level of ability for a given price, and often, too, a particular 'sound' these days. Ortofon's designer is on record as saying that customers now require a touch of 'character' and tailors his designs to provide this. Tip selection must surely play a part here.
I also think that a lot of a tip's performance in high-priced cartridges must come down to careful selection and polish of individual samples and the execution of the design, rather than just the bare statistics of the profile used. These usually describe an 'ideal' sample in any case!
Mark
Edits: 11/21/14 11/21/14 11/21/14 11/21/14 11/21/14
Ortofon's top regular-issue SPU. The new, limited-edition A95 (which is absolutely wonderful, BTW) uses a nude elliptical, like all the other current stereo SPUs.
Yes! I remember reading the interview with AJ in HFNRR back in the late 80s where he voiced his frustration over the lack of royalties.
Your point about the "voicing" of the cartridge based on tip/cantilever properties is what I was suspecting and seems a very reasonable theory.
You and I have obviously had the same frustration with "less than ideal" samples! I still don't understand in this day and age of precision optics and precision engineering how the tip isn't correctly mounted EVERY time!
Back in the day when I was buying Stanton styli, I would have to buy at least 4 at a time to cherry pick the one "good" one. In the latter days, I would get zero yield out of 4. Stanton got fed up with me constantly returning them!
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
A cool name?
it wouldn't work so well with CD-4 and it does.
It's not about whether the design "works" or not. It was the first to solve the problem of the bandwidth required for CD4. There are much better designs which achieve a wider, flatter bandwidth compared to a Shibata. The curving contact line actually means it is actually MORE sensitive to errors in rake angle compared to a Stereohedron (which is also a parabolic design). So it surprises me that manufacturers would choose to use a design that is more demanding in alignment, as people without the knowledge and tools would probably would never hear the true capability of the cartridge! Most of those earlier patents have expired long since, so licensing shouldn't be an issue anymore.
My point was that it seems odd to go back to a design that had flaws which are well known when better designs with equivalent benefits of low surface noise should be available for a similar cost. Having said that, I haven't the slightest idea of the cost of actually cutting these shapes...
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
Do you have a blown-up picture of the Shibata that shows its curved groove contact line? It would be nice to see why you think it has a curved contact line.
Thanks,
John Elison
The shibata has a different cut on the front and back. As the record spins the contact area curves. The stereohedron is actually a variation of the shibata and has a greater minor radius (wider contact area) and smaller major radius (shorter contact area).
Line contact types vary in dimensions, but many have a wider contact than a shibata. I think the curved contact softens the high frequencies slightly while providing excellent detail. It looks like Ortofon uses this aspect in voicing their cartridges.
Cadenza Red - fine line/aluminum
Cadenza Blue - FG 70/ruby
Cadenza Bronze - replicant/aluminum
Cadenza Black - shibata/boron
neo
BIRD LIVES
I guess voicing is about the only thing left to differentiate products and have an excuse to release a new model!
"Different strokes..." ;)
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
The better cut diamonds gyger, microline etc. and the difficulty in assembling them. Using Boron as opposed to Aluminum for the cantilever etc., Hand assemble vs machine.
The interesting point of Flavio's article is that it appears that the difference between the micro line , "fine line", "stereohedron", VdH, Shibata etc and the spherical and elliptical is the big one. With the more complicated cuts having more vertical surface area.
Hi John
This is taken from 3,774,918 (Shibata, 1973). Figure 7b shows the back of the stylus - illustrating the two cuts that form the contact line. Figure 7a shows that the cuts are made such that the scanning surface is forward from the centre of the cone. Therefore the line cannot be straight. The Hughes patent from 1975 adapts the Shibata concept and introduces a second corresponding cut from the "front" of the stylus - essentially adapting the cuts on the back face of the Shibata to the side which is the Stereohedron/hyperelliptical cut. As you will see from 7b, the intersection of the cuts on the front and back face are aligned with respect to the centre and therefore the line is straight along the scanning surface.
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
Hi, Anthony,
I wonder (and obviously this is pure speculation) if it's because cartridge manufacturers have gotten complaints about the difficulties in setting up a line-contact or micro-linear stylus due to their typically smaller profile. People just can't see them as well and it can make cartridge setup more difficult.
But that's a WAG if ever there was one. :-) I think unclestu's rationale is more plausible.
Regards,
Tom
Well I was wondering about that, but in fact my impression was that the Shibata might actually be more tricky to get right!
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
For awhile I was hunting down old test reports. I came across a relatively new one in HFN. They tested a Clearaudio Concerto ($3K).
Keeping in mind the HFN pink noise track is defective and all carts look like they roll off at 15K, the Concerto had virtually no high end.
The reviewer said it was voiced for rock, but the lab tester said the tip was misaligned by 10°. Can you imagine plunking down 3 grand and wondering where the cymbals went?
You've probably seen this Popular Electronics from '77. They test the 881 on page 34. After a few pages of ads the test continues. You'll see the square waves. It's kind of cool seeing the old stuff, analog tape and such, but if I dwell too long it's kind of depressing. I'm old enough to remember.
neo
BIRD LIVES
....for the link to the article! I hadn't seen it - I always love going back over old articles and reviews. It reminds us of where we've come from and how things have changed...not always for the better.
I've got a large collection of Stanton cartridges and I've been a big fan of the engineering (at its best). I became disillusioned in the 90s when the quality took a dive. Azimuth alignment was the biggest issue (up to 10 degrees rotation off normal!!)
Stories like that (Clearaudio misalignment) "annoy" me because it sounds like such manufacturers are having a laugh at our expense! Literally...
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
Probably economics. shibata.go back to early.4channel days , 70's,IIRC. Many newer LC types are.more modern and covered.by patents:Van Den Hull, Giger, etc.
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