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WTF = Which Turntable Friday
Premise: You get your choice of either of the two pictured turntables for free, which you can’t sell, but also don’t have to use if you don’t want to. Hey, they are free, take one.
Each of this week’s choices incorporates what I have always considered an undesirable feature... a proprietary headshell. These are both belt driven tables with sprung suspensions and neither of them gets talked about much around here, especially the Yamaha.
Yamaha PF-800
Dual CS-5000
I’ve sold both of these tables, listened to them both quite a bit and set them both up numerous times. For me, this is an easy choice... Yamaha. The Yamaha is a substantial table that sounds quite good... the Dual (IMHO) is not.
The dual arm tube of the Yamaha was seen as goofy by many and it hindered sales, which was a shame, because it was a legitimately good sounding table. The Dual had a wonky headshell and inferior sound, but we sold more of them. While hunting for pictures I found comments on the Dual ranging from "Best Dual Ever" to ones calling it a "POS". Polarizing, to say the least.
So, which turntable will you take and why ?
Have a great weekend everyone.
Dean.
ps: My apologies to anyone who owns the Dual and likes it. I’m just some overly opinionated jerk on the Internet who doesn’t know anything. Pay no attention.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
Follow Ups:
great sounding and built like a tank - now doing daily duty at a friend's record store in Frederick, MD.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -HST
The two turntables are very different. The Dual CS5000 plays 78s, has a low mass tonearm, has auto lift. It's a good match with the Ortofon OM series cartridges. And, it's a good option for anyone looking for an all-in-one deck.
The Yamaha is a higher-end product. I already have a Dual CS5000, so that would be my choice.
Best regards,
BK
It was a pretty sweet deck, and a nice step up from the Dual 1216 I used forever before it. My Yamaha's plinth was walnut and the suspended sub-chassis was brushed aluminum. It was a handsome piece.
The Dual not so much - though it does come with an attractive piece of wood.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Hi, Dean,
I'd take the Dual CS-5000 because it looks like it would be fairly easy to experiment with swapping tonearms, bearings, platters, etc. because of the simple plinth. I'd be curious to see if I could retain the auto-lift feature but use an external motor and a different platter.
It's free, so I wouldn't care if the experiment ended up ruining the turntable. Plus, I could always use it for record cleaning. :-)
Regards,
Tom
Such deep respect for the Dual ! he-he
I actualy do respect Dual turntables because I used a 502 for 27 years. (And had a 1229 for a few months.) But after upgrading several times since the 502, I've learned that there are better-designed 'tables and 'arms out there. I like the plinth on the CS-5000 and think it would be a good foundation for an improved version; the TK-5000. :-)
Tom
Despite being made in Germany, and (usually) having a clean, well-designed look, build quality was not good, at least on the less expensive models. Interesting that build quality wasn't good on that (more expensive?) model, it looks good enough to go into a museum of modern design. Meanwhile, the Yamaha is ugly as can be.
Maybe you should do a pick the most beautifully designed turntable post.
But I'm one of the few who base my decision on listening...
Dman
Analog Junkie
I have no personal knowledge, but someone I know who owned one told me the CS-5000 is an odd sounding table.
Odd in what way?
It was just a discussion about various Dual models, and he said the CS-5000 didn't stick around long and that a 506 clobbered it.
I fix several hundred Dual turntables every year and was floored by my first introduction to the CS-5000. The post retaining the platter support bearing is plastic, and most come here split. Much of the arm is plastic as well. The suspension is rubber dimples. The motor is a sealed-for-life [of the motor] unit. There are little pieces in the counterweight that fail. The list goes on and on.
Build quality is not even up to that of the cheapest 10" Dual made in the 1970s.
My own most-listened-to turntable is a Dual 1219. That model and the 1229[Q] , and the 1019 and 1009 [and its variants] can sound pretty darn good.
The Yamaha is a dream table.
I remember these turntables and at the time they were both available, I liked Yamaha products. I owned a Yamaha C-2X preamp and a B-2x amplifier. I remember wanting the Yamaha turntable because it matched my other Yamaha components, but I bought a Thorens TD-126 MkIII with SME III tonearm instead. Therefore, now that I have a second chance to get a brand new Yamaha PF-800 for free, I'll take the Yamaha.
Best regards,
John Elison
I'm gonna go with it tho I've owned and enjoyed a bunch of Duals (1219, 1229Q, 1249). As my table aged it's developed some issues. The cueing is shot. Tonearm drops like a brick off the roof so "set down" is performed using me old digits. Also, the VTF fine tuning mechanism's spring has sprung. Still, I can set the VTF using the "gross" weight at the tonearm's rear, so that problem can be overcome.
----------------------
"E Burres Stigano"
The list just need silicone grease and the the spring is probably not hard to come by.
dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
I just never liked Dual tables!
the choice is between two belt drive turntables. One is Japanese mfr. The other, German.Yamaha PF 800
2 speed belt drive. 33-1/3rd and 45 rpm., manual operation, speed pitch control.
The Yamaha has an unusual "twin pipe" tonearm. It is traditional in that it has pivoted geometry. It can accept cartridges weighing as much as 11G. Not specified, but I suspect medium mass. Oh, and it is dynamically balanced. That may play into its sound quality. A more constant vtf applied by means of a spring mechanism.The Yamaha uses a DC motor with servo controller electronics. Power consumption is rated at 7W. Moment of inertia at the platter: 330 kg/cm(squared).
Suspended sub-chassis. 3 springs. Spring layout resembles that of the Oracle Alexandria. At least it does from the outside. I'm not certain which came first, the Yamaha PF 800 or the Oracle.
As to the motor and control we can include the Thorens Td126 mkIII that uses DC power in conjunction with electronic controls.
SN ratio: -80 db (weighted)
wow/flutter: .028% WRMS
---------------The Dual CS 5000
3 speed belt driven model, semi-auto function.
33-1/3rd, 45, 78 rpm.
quartz microprocessor motor control. (Motor type not specified.)
power consumption: 9W
SN Ratio: -80db
wow/flutter: .025%honestly I've not owned any Dual turntable. Nor any Yamaha turntables. In that regard I have no pre-existing preference.
If I needed a turntable and one of these were available on the cheap, I'd probably go for the Yamaha. But if it were the Dual that was available and not the Yamaha....and I needed 'something'. The dual would have to do.
The Yamaha, with its three prominent spring covers, does have character. I do wonder which came first, the PF 800 or the Oracle Alexandria? There is some similarity between them.
-Steve
Edits: 11/14/14
did i say that????
I meant Yamaha, really...
I do not think the dual is in the same room.
dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
The Yamaha does look more substantial, but the Dual is so much prettier. Hmmm. I am going to take the Dual on looks. I'm feeling shallow today.
enjoy,
mark
the Yamaha wins the swimming suit part of the competition hands down.
Sim
.
Never trust some overly opinionated jerk on the Internet who doesn't know anything.
I wouldn't.
;-)
Have a great weekend Mark.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
......for two reasons. I would take your word that it sounds better and I agree with Slapshot that it just just looks a lot better. I'm not a fan of goofy headshells, but I would go with the PF-800.
Have a terrific weekend everyone and keep spinnin'!
.
...for not other reason than i really like the looks of it.
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