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Just lurking over at SACD.net and there's another perennial thread about vinyl vs SACD.Forgive me while I vent here, but I just have to shake my head when the "clicks and pops" myth comes up.
What in the world did these people do to their vinyl in the 20th Century? Snort coke off it? Play frisbee?
I'm pretty particular about the vinyl I purchase but still, it hasn't been that hard to put together a used 600+ classical Lp collection that's pretty much dead silent.
A record vac is occasionally necessary but many used brands--esp. Philips--are as clean and dust-free as a whistle, and sound that way.
And hello, if you stumble across an Lp and you have to blow dust off it as if out of a scene from Indiana Jones in the Temple of Doom...what do you think it's going to sound like? Just put it back and wait for the next one to come along.
No need to dismiss all vinyl as unplayable.
Edits: 10/26/14 10/26/14Follow Ups:
. . . I'm glad you made it back here to the vinyl love fest - wouldn't want to raise anyone's blood pressure! ;-)
can't win.
It's easier to believe in Pop Click myth than to admit to yourself that it wasn't a very smart move to sell you old vinyl for pennies on the dollar back in the day for aka "perfect sound forever" myth.
Never underestimate the power of denial.
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.
--Zen Proverb
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
Give me rhythm or give me death!
...:
I may be more tolerant of the "...click, pop, click," than most here. Even so, I do prefer a clean sound. More than once, I have picked up a rather disgusting-looking record just to find that it plays reasonably well; even before serious cleaning. The opposite sometimes happens, too. I once got one that looked absolutely dead mint; I might as well have put a sheet of 400 grit sandpaper on the 'table! Note that I do not think that I have ever heard an SACD being played. At least knowingly.
Later Gator,
Dave
A while ago i found an SACD player in the thrift. I bought it. I borrowed a Jeff Beck/Blow by Blow SACD. It didn't sound better than my simple Dutch 70s pressing record played on a humble Akai AP-206 DD from the 70s. I quickly found out SACD's are way more expensive and scarce than records. I quickly sold the SACD.
OTOH. Even audiophiles are leaving the CD platform. Check the used CDP's on Ebay, Craigslist, Audiogon. My old Sony X7ESD broke down lately. Bummer. Bought a used Consonance CDP for a fraction of the new price. I have the impression i'm breaking it in. Fabulous sound from an orinary Redbook CD, i thought it was impossible. Spinning now: a brand new Wayne Shorter 10CD box with lots of Jazz messengers stuff. Just 18 euro!
"The torture never stops"Greetings Freek.
Sorry I can't hear what your saying? the cacophony of clicks and pops coming from my vinyl is deafeing, also I'm to busy snorting coke of my lp's and playing frisbe...still, it's better than having my eardrums shredded by shards of that digital nonsense!
I'll be right over. You need to get rid of those records and I'm here to help. Just load all those into the back of my SUV and I'll take care of them for free. No charge.
.
It's part of the vinyl experience, the question is can you handle it. Obviously for most of us lps diehards the answer is a resounding yes - heck have you ever heard a John Elison recording? he-heBut for me the benefits of the full monty wash to give every vagrant record its 15 min. ...it make a big difference! :)
Of course new vinyl is just fine (after full wash).
Edits: 10/26/14
I actually had a friend say that to me about 10 years ago. It seemed to me he was inferring that, for reasons beyond his control, his and others records were too noisy to play.
I'd bet everyone who frequents the Vinyl asylum has been handling records properly for a very long time.
Having been predominantly a headphone listener for the last few years, I can honestly say minor LP noise does not bother me. Like going to a concert ...the noise floor is not zero. Actually, I'd rather listen to click and pops than the f'n bitch sitting behind me at the Renaissance concert on Thursday.
My copy of Sgt. Peppers has a click on it that has been there since I bought the LP when I was 13. Whenever I hear Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds on the radio and click is not there ...it really throws me off.
I want my damn click !
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
Well, you certainly are venting, among other ways by asking rhetorical questions to which you are perfectly aware of the answers.
You are obviously correct that there are numerous LPs out there that will play with very few pops and clicks, at least after a good cleaning. But they are far from "dead silent". Nearly all pre-Dolby LPs have noticeable tape hiss, and usually, the better made the LP and better condition it is in, the more clearly the background tape hiss can be heard. IME there is also always at least slight vinyl noise no matter how good the pressing. By the late 70s and early to mid-80s, the best LPs were getting very close to dead silent, but many were being made from digital masters, which some people like very much, but which do have a recognizable sonic signature.
Don't worry, SACDs are far from perfect as well, though I like the format. And I enjoy the Malcolm Frager Prokofiev and Haydn on RCA that you recommended. Not dead silent, though. ;)
...I do not hear it.
Later Gator,
Dave
Any headphones and especially speakers that are not the last word in revealing transparency and detail will mask most of the tape hiss of early LPs. I suspect that's why many vinylphiles intentionally seek out playback systems that don't make transparency and detail the highest priority, and rightly so, imo.
And for all but the best of the earliest LPs from the 1950s, imo other sonic shortcomings are much more noticeable than tape hiss. I still love 'em, though.
Many of my LPs, if not most of them, are very quiet and I love the sound of vinyl, but I recently got involved with DSD and I'm addicted. DSD is pretty amazing; it sounds as good or better than vinyl to me. Last month I bought a TASCAM DA-3000 DSD recorder so I could begin copying my LPs to DSD digital and the TASCAM can also playback DSD files directly from a USB flash drive. DSD sounds really, really good to me. I'm pretty much done with vinyl other than gradually making DSD copies of the LPs I already own. I'm considering buying the new Mytek Manhattan DSD DAC/Preamp with optional built-in ultra high performance phono stage.
Best regards,
John Elison
I have an Onkyo C-7030 CD player. It uses a chipset that converts everything to DSD. It's sound quality is, to my ear, better than the best CD players and converters available in the earlier days of digital, even in the 00s before DSD started to emerge. I bought it for ~ $130.
One has to wonder if CD players of this quality were available in the early days of CDs, whether LPs would have survived except as collectors' items.
Sure, there are a few LPs that, with $7,000 plus of front-end equipment, still sound a little better, but they hardly justify their cost.
BTW, the newer releases of Royal Philharmonic Orchestra works are quite well-recorded though some of the readings leave a little bit to be desired. If "Marche Slave" were any slower, those captured prisoners would never arrive.
I believe that your Onkyo is a 24/192 "upsampling" CD player. 24/192 level resolution is considered by some to be the sonic equivalent of DSD.
I googled that Onkyo player to death and never saw any reference to DSD conversion. Onkyo site says it has Wolfson 192/24 DACs. What gives?
The Wolfson DAC converts all the sources to DSD before analog. At least that's my understanding.
Here's a link to technical data for the Wolfson DAC used in the 7030. No indication of DSD capabilities.
I may be mistaken. My understanding is that the digital signal was converted to DSD. But I can't find any reference to support it.
nt
That's interesting! I hadn't considered converting PCM to DSD, but I do like the sound of DSD and I also like the sound of the two LPs I've copied to DSD.
Best regards,
John Elison
Imagine if HE were to come to the same conclusion. He would have to hire 50 unemployed teenagers to convert his stash to DSD.
I just came back from a trip to Brazil. I bought three LPs at a flea market in Belem; they are apparently the only 3 LPs in Brazil not owned by "that guy".
you bought them...it is probably a national tragedy down there...first thy loose the World cup, now you bought the other three LPs....
dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
Even of you made the perfect DSD copies of your LPS you just made the perfect copy of your LPS as they sound today on your current table, and then disaster happens and you find a much better table. Now you either have to make new copies, or just live with the sound of your previous table. I on the other hand enjoy all the improvements :) The damned curse of analog is that it can always improve.
dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
I don't think there's much chance of my finding a better turntable. I've been to five or six major audio shows and I haven't found one yet. Furthermore, vinyl is so imperfect to begin with that once you get to the level of performance that you and I have achieved, it really doesn't get any better -- only different. I'm almost certain that I will never want another turntable and I'm completely certain that I couldn't afford a better turntable unless I win the lottery. ;-)
Best regards,
John Elison
i am not. I get comfortable with what I have then a small change becomes a dramatic improvement and I hear things never before. And there is the doubt. It is one thing to hear a table at a show and in your own system. In analog nothing is finite :)
Dee
:)
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
the rest of us are out there searching for the holly grail :)
dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
Later Gator,
Dave
At least concerning my audio system! I am very satisfied with the sound of my audio/video system, especially with vinyl and DSD digital. I feel blessed to have a system that wows me every time I listen. It took a while to get here, but I have finally arrived.
Best regards,
John Elison
...Of course it could, but I am satisfied with it as it is. I have come to the conclusion that any money spent now (other than on source material) should be on my model trains.
Later Gator,
Dave
then the search begins...till i find the end of that path :).
dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
just asking :)
dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
I don't know. At the moment I'm simply considering my options. Even if I actually buy the Mytek Manhattan with built-in phono stage, I would probably keep my XOno and sell my Yaqin MS-22B. I really don't plan to get rid of my two turntables just because digital has now become my main focus. I have never discarded vinyl at any time. I grew up with vinyl and it's kind of a permanent aspect of my stereo hobby. Furthermore, at the rate I copy vinyl, it will take years to make DSD copies of all my favorite LPs. In fact, I may not finish that by the end of my life.
Best regards,
John Elison
I admit I am woefully uninformed when it comes to digitalizing. I am guessing that a DSD recorder would have the capacity to encode the audio signal in DSD, which is the technology used to record SACDs. Does this mean that your DSD recordings would then be play-able on a typical SACD player, but not on a Redbook CD player? Thanks.
There seem to be expensiv3e licensing options that drive up the cost of SACD processing. To process SACD, one must have licensed equipment and have paid, directly or indirectly, for the rights to use that patented format.At least, that's my understanding.
Edits: 10/27/14
nt
and media rights. Once an SACD is ripped it just a plain old DSD file. You remember some PS3 had a way to output DSD?
dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
Since I'm never going that route please don't get rid of your LPs until I've had time to go through them. :-)
-Wendell
He can keep his LPs, I have my own. But do you suppose he'd be willing to make DSD files of mine? Analog superior to digital, you say? I'll contemplate that as I'm listening to inferior digital music -- on a warm tropical beach. ;)
Okay! I'll save them for you. ;-)
Ah how could I give up on that pure sound, the people who sell the lps the places I go to find LPs the list goes on its the music first but all the other things I mentioned and then some no I know what I like and I Lps are are a perfect match for me. And there is so much more to learn and experinece with TTs ah couldnt see myself walking away from them. But that dont mean its for everyone but it does mean its just right for me.
How can a DSD copy of an LP sound better than the LP ?
Or, did you not mean to imply that?
Thanks.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
I didn't mean to imply that DSD copies of LPs sound better than vinyl; they sound the same to me. What I meant was that some of the commercial DSD recordings I have sound exceptional -- as good or better than vinyl.
DSD seems to have more of an analog sound quality than high-resolution PCM, especially in the midrange and highs.
Best regards,
John Elison
I thought there was absolutely no difference between an LP and a 44/16 copy. Are you saying you've found some improvement with DSD?
I even prefer DSD to vinyl. YMMV
I like DSD as well. On many recordings it seems to open the sound up a bit more.
I've always thought 16/44 was a pretty borderline spec for hi-fi. It's created a lot of unnecessary headaches as encoders and players have slowly improved to overcome its side effects.
I'll have to be sure not to listen to DSD.
I'd like to think I'm done.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
I guess I'm immune to the ticks and pops, I buy mostly used vinyl and it has to be a pretty dirty/noisy copy to keep me from enjoying it. Most noise is greatly reduced by a good cleaning with my Nitty Gritty. Occasionally I will look for a cleaner, less noisy copy of a particular LP that I enjoy, though.
A few ticks and pops are a small price to pay for some depth and feeling in the music I listen to.
TR
nt
Dman
Analog Junkie
Friend of mine, for example. First tick or pop, he's out of there.
Probably 99% of my record purchases are used LPs, and while I'm fairly certain that none them had coke, meth, or smack snorted from the groove surface, I am surprised at how many previous owners suddenly had the urge to hear something like Bruckner's 4th Symphony while deep into a bacon double fatburger, dragging the poor LP from its sleeve with thumb and forefinger liberally slathered in special sauce.
___
The little old ladies wait in wild anticipation for the meetings of the Double-A-C-ASSN...
--they reveal just enough of the grooves, but not too much.
And it's the hidden part that looks like a baby's bib after he just finished dinner.
___
The little old ladies wait in wild anticipation for the meetings of the Double-A-C-ASSN...
Of course, you can't just go by looks. Sometimes a scuffed up record sounds very nice, sometimes a perfect looking record sounds awful, or has a major skip or pop despite no visible problem.
Just means I'll have to delay listening to the LP until I've had a chance to clean it.
___
The little old ladies wait in wild anticipation for the meetings of the Double-A-C-ASSN...
On the one hand, the problems with vinyl are often exaggerated and/or you can learn to mitigate most of them. Better equipment, cleaner records, etc... If you just want to press play without the fuss, then you probably won't be up for the maintenance side of vinyl.
On the other, if you cannot stand any extraneous noise, then vinyl will never be for you. We tend to use a relative scale for things like "dead silent." Even my best audiophile pressings make a light tick here and there. Some of them are much quieter than the tape they're made from on average, but if you had to guess if it was vinyl during a quiet passage, you'd probably guess right.
I don't want to force anyone into vinyl if they're not digging it. Digital is generally very good and much more compatible with modern life. Vinyl is for those who have heard the difference and are willing to put in more effort.
Nowadays, for everyone who leaves someone else gets into it. When they say good riddance, just offer to dispose of their vinyl collection.
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