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In Reply to: RE: Anyone know where to find out the cartridge 'rise time'? posted by John Elison on October 21, 2014 at 20:56:49
I just wish JA or someone would actually plot a cartridge's frequency response. Bet it wouldn't look like that.
And note where that one starts, at l KHz :-)
Are you loading yours at 47 K-Ohms, John?
Follow Ups:
Why don't you plot one and find out what it looks like. I've plotted many of them and I've posted all of them here. They should be easy for you to find since they are all in my picture gallery. Furthermore, there is no appreciable difference in frequency response for moving coil cartridges at 47k-ohms or 100-ohms. I've done that plot, too. Where have you been all these years?
Best regards,
John Elison
John, I'm puzzled that you have measured little difference in FR when loading an MC cart at 47K vs 100K - yet (with my Benz LP, anyway) I can hear a clear difference?
Regards,
Andy
When first encountering John's work puzzlement is indeed an apt description for those that have first hand experience with the effects of varying load with many mc cartridges.
However as I said in my post below his work suggests those sonic differences, predictable differences I might add due to the wealth of anecdotal reports, cannot be accounted for as FR differences.
The work suggests one must seek some other explanation.
Interesting eh?
It might have something to do with transient response or dynamic frequency response because I also hear differences with different loading. My DL-S1 sounds bright or perhaps I should say harsh and strident unless I load it down very heavily. It sounds quite good into a step-up transformer, but it needs heavy loading when connected to an active phono stage.
Best regards,
John Elison
The issue to me is that why do we hear sonic differences with different 'R' loadings ... when you say the FR plots don't change much with different 'R' loadings?
If, as you say, " It might have something to do with transient response or dynamic frequency response " ... then it seems to me that the FR plots themselves are basically irrelevant to the SQ that we hear?
Regards,
Andy
Frequency response plots are not irrelevant, but they measure only a small portion of the total picture. We see only the frequency response at one modulation level and since we are using a test record instead of a signal generator, we can't change the signal level. However, when the frequency response deviates from flat with significance, it can show us part of what we're hearing, just not the whole picture. Each of these tests show only a portion of the whole picture and even when we put them all together, they still might not describe everything that happens with real music. But, that doesn't make them irrelevant. They are important, but just not all encompassing.
Best regards,
John Elison
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Hi John,
I appreciate you reposting those curves vs. loading. It makes more sense to me now that I didn't hear much difference between 90 ohm loading (setting from the previous OC-9 cart) and 900 ohm loading on my new-to-me Benz LOMC cartridge. I finally just settled at the recommended 750 ohm load.
Mike
Try loading at 47kOhm and see if you hear much difference between that and 90 ohm (or even 900ohm).
I suspect the difference would be fairly obvious, certainly in my system when using a OC9 ML/II the difference is obvious. If is likewise for you then that which "makes more sense" will quickly go bye-bye.
That's the point, that the sonic differences that are commonly reported with varying loading for mc cartridges apparently *cannot* be explained as FR differences.
At least, the two that I have, anyway! I prefer the sound of my Stanton WOS CS100 & Grado Reference Reference1 at about 35K, rather than 47K (this is with the right cap loading for the Stanton - the Grado is not affected by capacitance).
And I remember reading about another MM that sounded better at 60K!
Regards,
Andy
:-)
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
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Sorry about that, John. Sticking strictly to the last one you posted, are we to believe that there's no reason to plot anything below 1 KHz? And that there's really no deviation from 100% ruler-flat response until way above the hearing capabilities of bats?
My recollection is that every FR chart packed with every cart I've ever owned looks essentially like that one, although I'm not about to go back and look at the ones I still own so I may be wrong. In any event, this is why I stopped paying attention to them long ago. Am I alone?
> are we to believe that there's no reason to plot anything below 1 KHz?
I have no need for plotting anything below 1000-Hz because every cartridge I've plotted looked pretty much the same below 1000-Hz. The major differences occur above 1000-Hz. I'm surprised you don't know these things being as old as you are and as interested in vinyl as you are. All cartridges are fairly linear below 1000-Hz, at least all the cartridges I've had experience with. As I said, you can easily look up my frequency response plots, which do plot frequency response from 20-Hz to 20-kHz and see for yourself. The critical part of a moving coil's frequency response occurs in the upper frequencies. However, most manufacturers that supply frequency response graphs do not use test records that go higher than 20-kHz. This graph from Denon is the first graph I've seen from a manufacturer that goes all the way out to 50-kHz.
> My recollection is that every FR chart packed with every cart I've ever owned looks essentially like that one
Well, I wish you would go back and look for your frequency response charts. I would love for you to post any other manufacturer's frequency response chart that goes out to 50-kHz. I would like to see that simply because I don't recall seeing any like that. If you have a scanner, I'd be very interested in seeing any you may have from other manufacturers that go out to 50-kHz.
Thanks,
John Elison
Found exactly one FR chart (must have pitched any others), for a Denon 103. Showed the ubiquitous ruler flat line from 1 KHz to to around (my guess) 17 KHz where it started DOWNward and ended with a cliff-drop at 20 KHz. This is with 1 K-Ohm loading.
I thought these things had a rising high end.
Found a seemingly usable AT-OC9 cart in one of the boxes if anyone wants it.
regarding the at cart.
The cliff drop-off is where the test record ended. ;-)
Unfortunately, the DL-103 and 103R have conical styli with massive cantilevers, so they do not respond well to high frequencies beyond 20-kHz.
Understood. But why the downward tilt at ~17 KHz. Your plots (granted, of the103R variant) show the rising high end I would have expected to find).
Look again. My plots are also tilted down after 17-kHz. They start to rise after 7-kHz, but they begin to roll off after 17-kHz. Their massive cantilever and stylus places their cantilever bending resonance around 17-kHz and they roll off after that.
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Here is a comparison of the massive DL-103R stylus and cantilever compared to the lower-mass stylus/cantilever system of the DL-S1. Both pictures were taken with the same magnification.
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The flattest frequency response curve I ever measured was from the Dynavector XV-1. It was flat from 20-Hz to 20-kHz ±1-dB.
There's no correlation between your plot of the 103R and the one that came with my 103. No rise after 7 KHz. No rise period.
I've never measured a DL-103. I've only measured a DL-103R and a DL-103SA. I've never used a chart recorder and a sweep frequency test record to measure frequency response. My measurements were made from RIAA equalized spot frequencies through my phono stage whereas the plot supplied with your cartridge was made with a constant velocity sweep without RIAA equalization. Therefore, you are correct: There is no correlation between my measurements and the plot supplied with your cartridge.
My measurements reveal how my DL-103R performs in my system through my Pass Labs XOno phono stage. Your plot was done in a laboratory without RIAA equalization and therefore does not show how the cartridge performs in your system. That is the main reason I make my own frequency response and crosstalk measurements -- so I know how all my cartridges perform in my own stereo system.
Best regards,
John Elison
Those ruler-flat charts that come with (some) cartridges are silly and pointless. Nothing to do with you or your charts. Believe it or not, this isn't about you.
"this isn't about you"
I suggest that would be more obvious were you to make an effort to not come off as such a miserable snot.
How you could post that nasty comment about one of the nicest guys here is beyond me.
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nt
As the saying goes, takes one to know one :-)Are we having fun yet
I'd probably come off as more warm and cuddly but i'm watching the World Series and just checking in between innings.
Edits: 10/22/14
You used to receive and individual measurement with the high end cartridges like this one, i have for my empire :)
dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
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