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In Reply to: RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video posted by Drew769 on July 28, 2014 at 22:03:38
I must say, I have my doubts when comparing to the VPI SDS.The VPI SDS does much more than provide a dependable speed. IIRC it changes the shape of the AC wave and lowers the voltage after start up. All this is done with the intent of providing instantaneous speed stability rather than the average speed stability evidently provided by the Phoenix system. Of course it is a much more expensive unit and should do more.
I remember the change on my TNT when I switched out the original VPI speed controller for the SDS. It made a substantial difference. Since you are going from no controller to the Phoenix, I would hope for more of a listening difference than you describe.
The Roadrunner seems to work exactly like the speedometer on my bicycle that measures the time for a wheel revolution and provides the average reading over the last few revolutions.
Edits: 07/29/14Follow Ups:
How do you measure the speed and of your table? How consistent is it? Did the SDS make a night and day difference?
I measure the speed of my table the old fashioned way. I use a strobe disk and either a fluorescent light or an app on my phone to provide the strobe light. I do not think that measurement to 2 or three decimal points is the critical issue in tt speed. Of course the speed needs to be near 33 1/3 but what IS critical IMO is constant instantaneous speed, something that is not measured at all on the very accurate to be sure Roadrunner Tach.
I do not use expressions like, it blows away my previous whatever, or night and day. What the SDS did was bring me more of what I like about analog. The sheen on the strings, the separation of brass instruments, better space and depth, to wit, low level detail. More recently other additions to my tt set up have moved me closer still. These include the addition of a mechanical flywheel and a ringweight. Each of these added a bit more analog magic.
Can you explain what this means?
He is talking about wow & flutter.
He is talking about flutter (micro-flutter, to coin a phrase) but not the (macro-?) flutter that has been measured by standard industry measurements.
There is no such thing as micro-flutter. The only thing that might fit that erroneous terminology is jitter in a digital system. Furthermore, it is very unlikely that ordinary flutter even exists in belt drive turntables with massive platters. Think about it; how do you get a massive platter connected with an elastic belt to produce high-frequency speed fluctuations? Most turntables do not exhibit flutter, only wow.
Best regards,
John Elison
John,
You should know better.
First there is the virtually unmeasurable flutter occasioned by servos in a TT system. These are error correcting systems used in most direct disk tts. They have to go wrong to be corrected. This happens too quickly to be measured by standard industry methods, but it can be heard. I call it micro-flutter. There is some disagreement about this, and there have been many discussions here about it.
Then there are the even smaller changes in instantaneous speeds of even a belt driven tt that are corrected up to a point by such devices as flywheels and electronic devices like the SDS or perhaps the Falcon. I call this micro-flutter. I don't know if it is being measured, but it definitely can be heard. More consistent instantaneous speed is why belt driven tts sound better with flywheels, heavier platters and accessory electronics.
John, is this over your head these days?
Mel
> John, is this over your head these days?
It must be! I've never owned a turntable that exhibited audible flutter -- only wow!
Best regards,
John Elison
Then John, you must have discovered the perfect turntable, one whose sound cannot be improved by better quality electronics in front of the motor, a flywheel, a better bearing or a heavier platter.
You should market it John. You'll make a fortune.
But surely it's not your Technics nor your SOTA. And it is just as surely not my VPI.
Best,
Mel
"And it is just as surely not my VPI."I'm not disagreeing with you but shouldn't I hear the speed stability of a CD over my VPI HW 19 mk3?
I don't.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 08/01/14
I can't comment on the CD. But, given a good tt like yours, one doesn't HEAR speed stability. And it can't be measured by ordinary industry means. One only experiences the audio benefits of more speed stability which can be achieved on various VPI units with electronics in front of the motor, heavier platters, flywheels, etc. Only when you have more of it do you know what you were missing with less.
When these things are put into place and well-engineered, one senses the speed stability, as I wrote earlier, by, "the sheen on the strings, the separation of brass instruments, better space and depth, to wit, low level detail. More recently other additions to my tt set up have moved me closer still. These include the addition of a mechanical flywheel and a ringweight. Each of these added a bit more analog magic."
Yeah, I might be a little slow on this stuff, but I'm still trying to figure out how the Falcon could correct for instantaneous "glitches" in speed thereby coloring the audio, when according to Mel, there is no way the RoadRunner tach can detect them in the first place....
It's just my way of saying that measuring the time it takes to make a full tt revolution to 3 decimal places is not an important speed measure in the context of good listening. There are much more important speed considerations.
Reminds me of a quote I once read somewhere:
"When a thing is new, people will say it is not true. When the truth becomes obvious, they will say it is not important. Finally when its importance cannot be denied, they will say 'Anyway, it's nothing new'"
-William James
It's nice to have a new person in these parts who knows his literature. Perhaps you'll learn something about audio if you stay tuned in.
Thanks! Looking forward to it. I hope I never reach the point where I think I know everything or can't admit when I'm wrong.
Mel is a VPI enthusiast. He owns gobs of VPI equipment. He doesn't want to believe that there is anything better than a VPI SDS, especially when it costs less than half the price of the SDS. From his arguments, it sounds like he might even work for VPI; you never know.
Best regards,
John Elison
John,
I'm really disappointed by this response.
What I said in an earlier post was, "Well, I'm not here to front for VPI. If you can do the same for less money that's fine and if HW wants to he will respond for VPI."
Yes I own a VPI TT and arm, like hundreds in the Asylum.
Mel
You seemed to be arguing so strongly against the Phoenix Engineering hardware that I thought you might be working for VPI.
Sorry,
John Elison
I knew nothing about this hardware except what I learned by watching the posted video. The video spoke only to the speed as measured one instant per revolution and gave a relatively tepid indication of any increase in sound quality. That's what I knew at my first post. Beyond that I said nothing disparaging about the stuff.I'll say again, if he can produce a product that does the job for less money, more power to him.
Mel
Edits: 07/30/14
I thought the Phoenix Engineering representative answered your concerns in their entirety and then you basically ignored what he had to say judging from your subsequent posts. The Phoenix Engineering guy even owns a VPI Scout according to his last sentence. Here is what he had to say to you. After that you accused him of advertizing because he answered your questions.
> Mel-
>
> Actually, the Falcon PSU does much more than the VPI SDS. Where the SDS requires you to enter a frequency in Hz
> for the output, we do the math for you and you select speed and change tempo in RPM rather than Hz (depending on
> the pulley/spindle combination, .1 RPM = .18Hz, .15Hz, .13333Hz, or .11111Hz). We also have a calibration mode
> that allows the user to dial in the base speed in 0.01 RPM steps.
>
> Similar to the SDS, we ramp the speed at start up to prevent belt "burn out" and we reduce the voltage to a
> user selected level after the platter reaches speed.
>
> We can start in 33 or 45 RPM mode, and with a 50hz pulley, can do 33/45/78 RPM without moving the belt.
>
> The Falcon is the size of a pack of cigarettes, the SDS is a 19" rack mount unit. Falcon Retail is $379, SDS is $1200.
>
> And of course, we can connect to a high resolution digital tachometer. When connected to the RoadRunner tach,
> the speed stability is locked to a 2.5PPM TCXO rather than a 100PPM xtal as used in the SDS (40x better).
>
> While the tach uses the same basic method of measuring speed as your bicycle speedometer, it does so to 3 decimal places of
> resolution and uses a 2.5PPM timebase. We don't average the speed over several revs; each rev produces a speed reading.
> The RoadRunner tach is an instrument grade measuring device, your bicycle speedometer is not.
>
> While measuring the rotational speed of the platter once per rev does not produce any W&F information, it is irrelevant to our
> purpose since it is nearly impossible to accurately correct W&F on a table with an elastic drive mechanism and we
> therefore do not attempt to do so, as explained above. W&F is best handled by platter mass, not motor control.
>
> What the video did not show, is that most turntable platters will slowly increase in speed over time (20-30 min) if the
> feedback between tach and PSU is not enabled. My VPI Scout will start at 33.325 and increase to 33.580 within one side of an
> LP if not compensated by the tach.
What is the problem here? Why so much arguing over what appears to be a great product? I don't understand. If someone used it and it did nothing to improve the sound, then that's ok to state. But it sounds like it does even more than the highly acclaimed SDS, and some jokers here are knocking it down because they believe the inventor of this product is self-advertising??? Who cares if he is??!!!! I'm glad, if the product is all that others say it is, that he IS getting the word out. Wow. To be cut down for inventing a better mouse trap. That's sad. Sounds like what happened to Tucker with his cars.
Edits: 08/01/14
My only complaint was about Phoenix posting a link to a positive review of his product. Its pretty simple -- this is not allowed on AA. If I'm not allowed to do it for my cd's (even on Music Lane), why the hell is it ok for him? It is obviously a form of advertising. Why do you think ads quote reviews?
If you don't like the rule send a complaint to the Bored. Meantime I fail to see why the rule should be applied to some and not others. The rule makes sense to me because without it AA would be awash with manufacturers/distributors/dealers touting their products by posting links like that all over AA. I couldn't even post to announce the *release* of my cd's, let alone links to positive reviews.
Well, you've certainly done enough advertising about your CDs on this thread.But you are right, everyone should follow the rules. If you think someone has violated them, you should alert the moderators and let them do their job. It certainly isn't your job to enforce VA policy is it?
That's why they put this button on each post:
You also have to be consistent. If you're going to report Phonex for his abuse, then you need to report HW and anyone else when they go over the line.
It also appears that he (or the moderators) removed the offending post, so mission accomplished.
Edits: 08/01/14 08/01/14 08/01/14
Jeez, what are you complaining about? Either you see the sense in the rule or not. If not, discuss it with the Bored rather than give me shit about directly telling a guy he's violating an AA rule instead of essentially being an anonymous "tattle tale". I did not contact the Bored regarding this.
As for me advertising in this thread.....
From reading my posts in this thread you wouldn't even know my name, the titles of my cd's, where to buy them, nor do you see any links to reviews.
You seem to think my "mission" was to sabotage this guy's product in some way, ignoring the fact that I said I might be interested in buying it. You want me to be "consistent" but are bugged about me telling Phoenix he can't do what I and others can't do.
The example of an HW post you linked earlier has zilch to do with what I said anywhere in this thread. I don't give a flying rat's ass about Phoenix or any other manufacturer saying good things about their products. Its so expected as to be meaningless. I expressed ZERO objections to anything Phoenix posted other than that link to a review. If/when I notice that HW or another manufacturer (or somebody else who stands to financially benefit) posts a link to a review of what he's selling I'll object.
Just so we're clear.... I'm just a happy,satisfied customer. The Falcon PSU by Phoenix Engineering is a fantastic product at a more than reasonable price. Snap one up before the price goes up. Check out the review below
PaulB
Generally speaking I've been skeptical that these kind of products would be worth the money to me - though this one is considerably cheaper than the others I'm aware of, including VPI's. I really don't have complaints about my vinyl setup. Its not that I think its SOTA or anything, but its pretty good and I'm less of a hobbyist and/or perfectionist than many other inmates seem to be.
Dunno if I'll buy one or not, but I'll read the review you linked.
Here is another review, where the user upgraded from a Music Hall Cruise Control to the Phoenix Falcon PSU:
I didn't realize I was complaining; I thought I was agreeing with you. Perhaps advertising was the wrong term; since this thread is about AC regenerative PSUs, maybe "hijacked" would have been more correct (not sure if that violates rules or not, but I think it is in bad form from what I've read). I wouldn't report it either since I'm not that thinned skinned. You certainly could have made your point without talking about your CDs though, couldn't you?
The "mission" I referred to was the prevention (or removal) of posts that violate the rules, which if I read you correctly, you contend happened in this case. No problem there either.
My reason for advocating the use of the Alert button to notify the moderators is to prevent exactly what has happened to this thread. What started out as an expose of PSUs, quickly degraded into a pissing match. That's why it's better to leave it to the authorities. Try pointing out traffic violations to an errant driver sometime and the results will be predictable. Using the Alert feature doesn't make anyone a tattle tale, it's utilizing them in the way they were intended. Confront someone when it really isn't your responsibility to do so, and you risk taking on the role of the antagonist.
But by all means, in the future do as you please, but I wouldn't be surprised at the results....
Thnaks for posting that John. I couldn't see that response. That does NOT seem like advertising to me but rather an explaintion of what his product does.
PaulB
Right. How does the SDS go about curing this without feedback? Does the Falcon not do the same thing as the SDS?
It means that the speed is the same throughout the platter's revolution, no matter over what small distance it is measured. Consider, for example the possibility of a small irregularity in the bearing of a tt such that it slows down for an instant during each revolution, and then regains speed for the remainder. The Roadrunner tach may well record the speed at a constant 33.xxx rpm, but it will sound awful.
It has been argued that tts that have constant correction mechanisms slow down and speed up virtually imperceptibly and this has a deleterious effect on the sound, though they can measure at a perfect 33 1/3. I happen to be in agreement but don't wish to argue the point now. It's been discussed here many times. If interested you can do a search.
> The Roadrunner tach may well record the speed at a constant 33.xxx rpm, but it will sound awful.
If it sounds awful, you don't need a built-in measurement device to tell you it sounds awful. Furthermore, the only way to correct a wow & flutter problem is to repair the turntable or buy a different turntable. Wow & flutter cannot be adjusted out.
The Roadrunner monitors average speed so you can adjust your turntable to maintain the correct 33⅓ RPM. I don't see how that can make anything sound awful. When used in conjunction with the Falcon PSU, these two components serve a function that many belt-drive turntable owners believe they need. Moreover, these two components appear to serve that function better than anything else on the market at less than half the price. I am absolutely bewildered as to why you are disparaging Phoenix Engineering for developing these highly desirable products.
> It has been argued that tts that have constant correction mechanisms slow down and speed up virtually imperceptibly and this has a deleterious effect on the sound
If it takes a verbal argument to convince someone his turntable sounds bad, then perhaps it doesn't sound bad at all. If speed correction has a deleterious effect on sound, it shouldn't require an argument to convince anyone. Furthermore, these Phoenix Engineering products do not make constant corrections in the sense of direct-drive turntables for which your arguments are intended. Instead, they are designed to find a specific line frequency that enables the platter to spin at the correct average speed. The elasticity of the belt in conjunction with a massive platter's flywheel effect are designed to minimize wow & flutter in belt drive turntables.
I guess I'm wondering what your agenda is in attacking Phoenix Engineering. From my perspective they seem to be introducing a breath of fresh air into the type of products many feel they need but are unable to afford from other manufacturers. Phoenix Engineering products appear to me to be superior to other turntable motor controllers at significantly less cost. I have absolutely no connection with the company but after reading this thread I'm seriously considering buying the Roadrunner for my Sota Millennia Vacuum turntable.
Best regards,
John Elison
John,
Why are you accusing me of attacking anyone or any product?
As I repeated elsewhere, "Well, I'm not here to front for VPI. If you can do the same for less money that's fine and if HW wants to he will respond for VPI."
I did say that the effort mounted by the manufacturer in this thread smacked of advertising that was beyond what we normally experience around here. His posts, as the manufacturer lauding his own product, were overkill and out of line IMO.
Mel
Mel- Perhaps you're right; maybe mfrs should not be allowed to post on this forum, that would prevent them from "stepping over the line" as you put it. I don't see anything in Phoenix's posts that go any further than this:
First, HW has a very special place on this forum. He has been very responsive to SPECIFIC questions from list members and tries, I think, to answer them in the least self-promotional way. His specific advice is often sought here. I cannot remember when he has disparaged the output of a competitor. Sometimes when he has been annoyed at what goes on here he has left, and his departure usually provokes a good deal of expressed unhappiness. In the post cited he has, to the detriment of VPI, suggested the wisdom of buying used. I can't remember another manufacturer doing the same.
What Phoenix has done, on the other hand, is cite a favorable review and post the following (currently edited out, but easily seen): "Actually, the Falcon PSU does much more than the VPI SDS. . . . . " IMO when posted by the manufacturer, that's advertising.
It's a thin line, perhaps, and others may see it differently.
Just for the record and to satisfy John Elison specifically, I have no connection to VPI whatever, except that I have been a user of VPI products, as have many others here. I have also been treated very well by them as a customer over many years and that's also the same as many other members of this board.
I agree with you whole heartedly. I personally do not see anything wrong with HW's post, and apparently neither do you. Who better to enlighten the membership than the man responsible for these designs. I own several VPI tables and have nothing but respect for the company and HW.Looking back at the (edited) phoenix post you cite, it appears he was responding to your assertion that the SDS did much more than the Falcon PSU, which I think you have agreed, was a misinformed opinion. You claim no bias, and while you may truly believe that, the difference in your tone when referring to VPI vs Phoenix is glaring as others on this thread have pointed out.
I see each post has an "Alert" button on it. Perhaps using this mechanism to prevent the types of egregious abuse you see, would be a better alternative rather than creating a confrontational atmosphere.I could cite other posts by HW where he refers to others he doesn't agree with as "morons", but it's not my place to pass judgement on someone I respect and admire.
Quote: "First, HW has a very special place on this forum."
I hope you're not suggesting that someone should receive special treatment or be given more latittude on this site because they are more popular in your eyes.
Quote: "The manufacturer chose to respond to me with, in part, the put-down of an competitive product..."
I did not see his response as a put-down; I thought it was a rather fair comparison in response to your put-down regarding the Phoenix product. HW was also comparing 2 VPI tables. I wonder how it would have looked if he had to compare one of his tables to say a ClearAudio or some other high end table? Take this one for instance, comparing a VPI table to a Nottingham:
Edits: 07/31/14 08/01/14 08/01/14
My original post was based on my reading of the OP and looking at the video. If there was an error based upon additional information not in the OP, it was up to the OP to respond, IMO. The manufacturer chose to respond to me with, in part, the put-down of an competitive product, and in what seemed a matter of minutes made several additional posts not directed at me and lauding his product. I simply pointed out that was generally not how this board works. Perhaps you didn't know that as you are a newbie.
As for "others on this thread," that boils down to John Elison. If you had been around here any length of time you would know of his anti VPI (and sometimes anti HW) tendencies. Also he and I have sparred often here on other issues like direct v. belt drives.
If there was an error based upon additional information not in the OP, it was up to the OP to respond, IMO.
Ok, that's good; I think I understand where you're coming from.
Just one more thing, if you could help clarify:
Do you feel it was someone else's fault that you were wrong, or do you still maintain that you weren't wrong by virtue of someone else not providing enough information for you to make a fully informed response?
Philosophical rationalizations are always so messy....
Thanks for clarifying; it sounds like you are talking about wow and flutter and I don't think the SDS or the Falcon (or any AC supply) can correct for that.
I've read over this thread and I don't understand what the argument is about? The SDS and the Falcon are equivalent devices: Both create a regenerated AC signal that is referenced to a stable xtal, both reduce the voltage and have frequency agility. According to the chart on the Phoenix website, they each provide all the same functionality, with the exception of the tach input and calibration mode the Falcon does and the SDS does not. I don't know if they use the same circuit or not, HW could probably comment better on how the SDS generates a sinewave, I think the Falcon uses something called DDS?
From the positive feedback from the Falcon customers, it sounds as if the sonic benefits are roughly equivalent as well. Did I miss something here?
Actually a good electronic device like these in front of the tt motor CAN reduce what I call micro flutter in a belt driven tt. That is why they sound better with the device, or a heavier platter, or a flywheel.
Several months ago I purchased Phoenix Engineering's Falcon PSU. It's being used with a VPI Scout (the rest of my system can be seen in my profile). After listening to it for about an hour I decided I had to jot down a few thoughts on how it sounded. I never do this. This PSU made such an impression on my listening experiance I felt I needed to share. Unfortunately I have misplaced those notes. But after reading Mel's post he was discribing exactly what I was hearing with the Phonenix Falcon PSU.
" What the SDS did was bring me more of what I like about analog. The sheen on the strings, the separation of brass instruments, better space and depth, to wit, low level detail. "
Three things I do remember from my notes.Relaxed detail. Cohesive.Flow.
I have never owned or heard a VPI SDS. I'm sure it's a fine unit as everything Harry builds is good quality. But this Falcon PSU impressed me so much that is a vital part of my vinyl playback. Thanks Bill for a great sounding affordable product.
PaulB just a satisfied customer
.
Edits: 07/29/14
Well, I'm not here to front for VPI. If you can do the same for less money that's fine and if HW wants to he will respond for VPI.
But I must say this whole thread, beginning with the OP celebrating dials and LEDs instead of improved audio, and followed by all of your posts celebrating technology looks more like an advertisement for Phoenix Engineering than what we are used to in these parts.
Mel
More advertising.
.
Edits: 07/29/14
nt
Isn't that one of the purposes of a message board? For people to share information about (in this case)records and vinyl playback equipment?
I'm a musician and release my cd's on my independent label. I've received quite a few very positive reviews. I am not allowed to post a link to them on AA. It would be fine for you or another inmate to post it, NOT for the manufacturer.
Edits: 07/29/14
.
Edits: 07/29/14 07/29/14
People here are interested in the product.
Is this really too hard for you to understand? Reviews of my cd's are in jazz publications, and are hardly affiliated with my label. Its an AA rule. I didn't write the rules, but I - and you - have to abide by them. I'd think it was obvious that they don't want the joint inundated with links to reviews posted by people who'd benefit from what amounts to advertising.FYI I might be interested in your product.
Edits: 07/29/14
.
Manufacturers will NEVER provide an objective evaluation of their products.
To be clear, I posted that video as a consumer. The "evaluation" was not by the manufacturer. It was actually my first attempt at any kind of a product evaluation (you'll see my other vids are mostly car stuff) - probably my last attempt, too! LOL Geez.
The manufacturer did jump in to add detailed information to Mel's questions/opinions. Can you blame a manufacturer for doing that?
Just more advertising.
.
Edits: 07/29/14
When logic fails, personal attacks begin.
I have no tagline. That was placed by the forum. I could make some suggestions for you as well, if I was going to waste any more time or bandwidth on your advertising.
Buh, bye
Hi Mel,
I should have probably led with the opinion that my VPI has never sounded so consistantly good since putting these devices into the chain. There is a certain rightness to everything I've dropped a needle on. "PRaT" is probably cliche, but I've noticed that the soundstage is very consistantly wide and instruments have a natural sound like they should.
Of course, I focused the video on the objective measurements, primarily because they told the story behind the improvement and consistancy in sound that I was experiencing. Seldom in the world of high end audio is there is objective measure that actually shows you why something sounds better to your ears.
I have no affiliation with Phoenix - I actually bought them through Hi-Fi Heaven on eBay. I love the VPI products, and will most likely eventually upgrade the Scout to another VPI table.
Drew,But what you said in your review, before being provoked, was that you couldn't say it made "a night and day difference." For the rest of us who could care less about bells and whistles, THAT was the review!
Edits: 07/29/14
I'm using a $55 variac with outstanding results. The biggest improvements in power to VPI tables seem to come from voltage reductions rather than speed control. I start at 110v and back down to 60v for playback. Sounds great at less than 1/10th the cost of these units.
It's the VOLTAGE that makes the biggest difference. Lower voltage smooths the synchronous pulses that get into the platter through the belt(s). Lower voltage means softer pulses, lower noise.
I've been telling people who call to get a Variac for probably 25 years! It really works but it will not stabilize the frequency like the SDS does if you are going for the last ounce of speed stability. A $100.00 metered Variac does a wonderful job on a synchronous motor table and for that matter it does a great job on power amps setting the voltage to the exact amount that sounds the best in your setup.
I run my big Mac amps at exactly 117V, sounds best that way.
HW
HW, does it do any damage to operate an Aries or TNT motor to operate at 60v after start-up at 110v? Doesn't seem to get warm or fail to hold speed.
As long as the motor locks on and stays synchronous you are fine. When it starts vibrating and going out of synch you are too low!!
Thanks, Harry. I'm very pleased with my Aries (extended) and the accompanying JMW-12 arm. And the variac made a nice improvement.
I have been using the Falcon PSU and Roadrunner unit for 3-4 months now with my VPI Scout with the 300 motor upgrade. I also very much recommend.Simple to use, you can see real time what the speed is doing.
I found Phoenix on the DIYAudio site, while keeping an eye on the K&K audio speed controller, which might be available now, and other DIY builds for turntable motor control. The Phoenix unit is like pushing the "easy" button, besides being very affordable.
Edits: 07/29/14
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