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Got your attention? Cool. Let me explain my question.What is your absolute bottom-line, entry level point on vinyl playback gear that you could live with, with relative satisfaction? At what point did you find a table, arm, cart, phono pre combo that you were happy with, but then decided to move beyond that because you wanted a better experience?
Or, when you reached the point where you were happy, did you stay put?
I ask these questions because I own accessibly priced analog gear, and I own some of the more ambitious stuff too. I usually have a ball with both, and I'm often impressed with just how well some things seem to perform, despite their cost.
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."
Edits: 07/23/14Follow Ups:
Maybe it's just me, but the music itself gives the real joy and satisfaction, and the sonics are secondary, though very important also.
I've had cartridges upwards of $1500 on my Nottigham-Rega setup, and for the last year or so have settled on a Shure M97XE cartridge, available new for about 75 dollars. It plays beautiful music, and when the needle needs replacing, I buy a new needle for 50 dollars and slip it on the cartridge.
I'm in a situation now, not that much money and living out of the country, where buying new stuff just isn't that feasible. I am happier, I would say, living simply with what I have, than when I was constantly buying and selling and comparing and "upgrading"... that was more stress for me, than peaceful enjoyment....just my take on things.
Otherwise the project rpm 5.1 will do.
Fitted with a at33
There are those who are endlessly swapping out equipment. The *excuse* is the holy grail of audio perfection, but in reality, it's just the fun of the new. No different from those who enjoy the car bug or travel to new places. It's not how much the equipment costs, it is the enjoyment of change, the new, at whatever financial level one can afford.
The other type are those who consider audio equipment within a broader life context. They "satisfice." At some point, the audio is "good enough" and the money goes elsewhere. It's not because they feel like they've attained the epitome of audio performance, but it is satisfying for their needs.
Personally, I'm in that second category. I could afford upgrades to my equipment, but my discretionary money is spent on travel, which is often centered around live music, the arts, food, wine and history.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
I'm a big fan of vintage mid fi stuff that my wife and kids can use without my throwing a fit when something "happens." My favorite mid fi setups at the moment are a Dual 1241 with Shure M91E for LP's and a Dual 1209 with Stanton 680 for 7" 45's.
Pioneer Pl-12D, ca. 1974, made in Japan. Found (another) one lately for 3 euro in a thrift. I had already fixed up and sold 4 or 5 of them. The main bearing was stuck, otherwise in good nick. After some TLC, wonderful warm sound playing anything but classical: jazz, rock ('n roll), blues.
Amp: black box Pioneer mid-level, 30 euro. Speakers: KEF ChoraleIII monitors(10 euro) on Target stands(15 euro).
"The torture never stops"Greetings Freek.
Despite being an OCD turntable collector (crank ;-) my current bread and butter table is an inexpensive vintage (70's) Sony Direct drive, the big draw there is the fact that it's automatic.
I also run a number of different cartridges most MM's and MI's, the only part of my analog chain I consider vital is my Korato Tube stage.
Regards Ferd
with Naim N-boards for phono.
My minimum used to be an LP12/Basik Plus/Basik PS + K9 but I think the arm on the RP6 is better than the Basik Plus.
I'm still staying put with my $20 Technics SL D202, though I hasten to add: it's situated on a $300 Symposium anti-vibrational platter and attached to $300 Audioquest interconnects.It does everything I want it to do.
That said, I may upgrade to 1200 mk 2 someday, but I still ask myself, "why"?
I've always appreciated your vintage-friendly bravery.
Edits: 07/23/14
Thanks- I appreciate that. It's pretty fun and stress free because I have a repair resource 30 minutes from my office that can repair any vintage table you can think of.
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."
nt
nt
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As Cactus said, good speed accuracy, plays the record straight away.
Later Gator,
Dave
anything less is now unacceptable.
By denying scientific principles, one may maintain any paradox.
Galileo Galilei
Seems to be about it. Ortofon 2MM Red didn't really cut it. Maybe the newer Debut with the carbon arm would be OK.
Edits: 07/23/14
If I can BBQ to it I can live with it. Even possibly at the stage where a solid state hard drive with Vinyl burnt to CD could work. Painful to walk away from good MC's but as long as there is melody and PRAT I will be OK.
and my hearing is still fine and I can give some of you two decades. Don't flirt with 40 year old women in a supermarket because my wife is a decade younger and hot. Even better she loves music and appreciates vinyl.
It's getting harder to tell these days! Here is my long-winded ramble why...
Last May, just before my "Great Canadian Exodus" to the States for my job, I had an ARC tube power amp in the Analog Rig. Loved it! Big sounding amp with tons of the typical "tube thing" going for it. Had a set of caps soldered in (instead of the HP output from a Paradigm X-30 crossover) that allowed the ARC to run from about 50hz up, running separate subs from the X-30 crossover.
But, we had to sell off the ARC before we moved (finances were needed). No "serious" audio for the better part of a year (save for my Mother-in-law's 2013 Christmas present of Music Hall USB-1 Table and Yamaha integrated through their old garage JBL 4311s!).
We got moved into our new place just over three months ago. I've had the system set up for about the last two months, give or take. In place of the ARC is my old Mission Cyrus II running (wired direct from a pair of jacks to the input of the power section) being driven by the X-30's supposedly "lossy" HP section.
The interesting thing is that I don't miss the ARC (or tube power!)at all... Maybe I just haven't heard a "really, really good" audio system in a long time. But I have heard LOTS of live music and I'm finding that I don't really miss a thing when I sit down to listen. Maybe I just don't care after being deprived of music for so long. All I know is that I can still listen and actually HEAR the majority of things that my system has always appeared to be good at (at least what my table/arm/cart/head amp/pre and speakers have always done so well). But the main thing is that I've been able to put away a LOT of audio neurosis and just enjoy listening to music again...
Weird, but true...
My name is Dman, and I am no longer an audiophile; I am a music lover.
"If the audio industry built gear that sounded as good as it did 50 years ago, there would NEVER be a need to re-issued anything!"
New, either a Rega RP1 with decent entry cart or a Pro-Ject Debut III with decent cart. Either would run in the $450-500 range. Now vintage is another matter.
Opus 33 1/3
Would work for me.
I hear Schitt Audio has a new super-cheap phono pre out. If I were on a budget I'd look into that.
"The problem with quotes from the internet is that many of them just are just made up."
-Abraham Lincoln
I think some folks on this site might consider the RP6 as entry level or below. Yeah, it probably doesn't turn at the correct speed but somehow I've gotten over that and just enjoy the hell out of it.
At almost 75, I really don't give a f*ck what other people think.
And, btw, I hear good enough.
Take heart, future geezers. You'll enjoy your hi-fi just fine.
I do.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
This time last year I was listening to a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon with Ortofon 2M Red through a NAD PP1, and I was having a blast. Since then I've upgraded and am glad I did. But if all I could afford was that $500 outfit, then I'd be counting my blessings at how good it is.
Happy listening,
Jim
"The passage of my life is measured out in shirts."
- Brian Eno
Now I am happily playing with my Thorens TD-150 in stock condition with Shure 91ED cart. It isn't as good sounding as my other turntables but the cool looks and just trying something different is fun....
My absolute bottom line requirement is that a turntable spin at accurate speed (NAB standards) and without audible wow/flutter or rumble and hum. That rules out some built-to-no-specs turntables that are marketed as 'audiophile entry level' and of course the low end Crosley, Ion, and BPC toys from the '80s. I'm more interested in accurate, high-fidelity performance than pleasing euphonic distortion caused by spinning-too-fast speed errors and that sort of thing.
I have a linear tracking Technics SL-6 with inexpensive P-Mount cartridge in my downstairs system. It's certainly not as refined as or as capable as the SP-15 and modified SL-1200MK5 in my studio, but it provides good performance without objectionable flaw. It was a $10 yard sale find, very nice for what it is.
To answer your other question, yes, I've reached the point where I'm completely satisfied with the two turntables in my studio system.
I can usually get to a place where I'm content for a while, but I usually come back to a place where I'm ready to experiment some more. Sometimes a more expensive piece does the trick and sometimes a less expensive one does. I think it's more informative to try both and not just follow the dollar path, especially considering the role synergy plays in analog.
If I had unlimited resources, I'd love to find the absolutely optimized combos for various price points. As much as I love the music, I'm still very much a 'gear-head' and enjoy tinkering with unfamiliar equipment.
Getting back on track, I think the secret is to find a good tonearm for the price. I've noticed that a resonant tonearm might sound good with pop, and okay with jazz, but will show its ugly face on a dynamic piano recording.
Of course when I hear a good hundred-thousand dollar system I'm reminded that there's only so much you can do with low cost materials, so being content isn't the same as being where I'd like to be. But, the journey has been fun as well.
Hope this makes sense as I've just slammed 2 cups of coffee and am heading out the door!
What is your absolute bottom-line, entry level point on vinyl playback gear that you could live with, with relative satisfaction?
I could happily live with a Pioneer PL-12DII table with a Denon DL-160 cartridge and an integrated amp such as a Yamaha CA-610 or NAD 3020.
The older I get the easier my needs are met.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
My standards have dropped along with my hearing acuity.
I am very satisfied with my Empire 208 turntable/SME tonearm + Ortofon M20FL cartridge with LFD integrated amp/built-in phono stage. It's not my primary system, but it may soon be as I intend to move out of a big house and into smaller "retirement" digs at some point not that far in the future.
The budget system that I had for many years and would be happy with again was a Thorens TD-150 (various MM cartridges) + Audible Illusions Model 3 preamp/phono + Dynaco Stereo 70 (Welborne mods). With judicious shopping, I could recreate this system (excluding speakers) for less than $1,000 today.
"Knowing what you don't know is, in a sense, omniscience"
I get my hearing checked every year when I have my physical. As of this past January I heard out to 16kHz.
Not bad for 55 years old.
I'm just more easily satisfied as I get older.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
Nice! I'm about 10 years older than you and am only hearing out to 12-13k.
Having been an audio enthusiast my whole life (started building kits in the 1960's), I do not think I'm any less demanding. Instead, I think my expectations for what is possible have been lowered. Even very high-end systems just don't deliver the experience of live music. Considering just the past decade, I've spent over $60,000 on various high-end audio gear -- brands and models that are well thought of.
That experience, along with attending audio events and high-end demos has affected my hopes for what is achievable with today's technology. Maybe I'm experienced enough now not to expect that the next new gear or tweak will ever deliver more than a weak simulacrum of the actual event.
Or maybe I'm just delusional. If I could just stretch a bit to afford that Graham tonearm, my deck would finally deliver Nirvana...
"Knowing what you don't know is, in a sense, omniscience"
Does that track with our aging hearing? At 63 I believe I still hear pretty well but it may be whistling past the graveyard. :-)
-Wendell
And I was flirting with a cute 40 something at the grocery store this A.M.
Why give up?
63 is the new 20KHZ...: )
Or at least 14KHZ.
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."
Actually, low frequencies still are easy to hear. It's the highs that have receeded a bit, to the point where cartridges that were excessively bright and used to send me screaming from the room are now quite acceptable.
What's interesting in this aging process is how well I still can discriminate what sounds like real music, probably based more on tone, pace and harmonics. I know an older recording engineer (now age 73) who still has incredible music acuity, despite loss of hearing. FR is certainly only one small part of the story.
"Knowing what you don't know is, in a sense, omniscience"
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