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In Reply to: RE: "I had no idea the VPI is vacuum pump based.." posted by volunteer on April 16, 2014 at 05:53:25
It's obviously not.
Follow Ups:
What else is important other than picking nits? Nit on.
-Wendell
It makes a significant difference, with a vacuum pump based machine you not only do a much better job removing the crud but can clean records while listening to your records,
That's nit picking ?
Since I don't clean records while listening, yes. Better job? Perhaps. Where is the data that is not simply anecdotal?
-Wendell
Using your reasoning what difference does the particular model SME 3009
arm make ?
I mean they were all manufactured by SME, mount cartridges, read the grooves, no ? ;-)
Suspect you can't if you are comparing RCMs to tonearms.
-Wendell
How am I supposed to quantify the differences in vacuum pump based RCM's vs traditional RCM's ?
However I have had some of my records cleaned by a friend with a Monks
these are records I'd cleaned repeatedly previously, and in most cases the results with the Monks were perceptibly quieter and seemingly more dynamic
and this BTW mirrors the experience of others on this forum and others.Google or VA search if you're actually serious and not just being argumentative.
BTW Wendell do you happen to be a personal injury attorney or are just being obtuse ?
Regards Ferd
It's quite easy, buy all three types, sit down with customers, clean their records and see which does the best job. HP did this in TAS 30 years ago, it beat the thread nozzle type by a wide margin and was 1/7th the price. That still is the case and in fact the new bidirectional vacuum machines are even better.
Looking over an old issue of TAS the other day and most of the companies and dealers advertising are now gone, we are still here, kills you doesn't it!!!!!
The grand Kahuna audiophile poobah HP liked your machine better that does it, the end all definitive answer forever ;-)
You are so utterly full of it you old Pirate.
I am old but I don't wear a bandana or an eyepatch!!
;-)
You asserted their superiority. If an opinion, enough said.
-Wendell
There is no question, the nozzle (monks/loricraft) type machines do a much better job than a slot (vpi/nitty gritty) type machines.
It's all about removing all the cleaning fluid and dirt from the record fast enough to prevent evaporation from re-depositing the dirt back on the record.
With a nozzle type machine the record surface that's under the nozzle goes from full wet to full dry in an instant.
I built my own nozzle type machine. The vacuum pump cost me $60, I had a donor turntable and spent another $20 at the hardware store for the other bits and pieces.
Mine is fully manual but I don't mind. Drawing the arm slowly across the record becomes second nature after a very short time.
The hardest part is getting really good thread.
Monks and Loricraft used to use The Celebrated Tolbot #30 but it's no longer being made.
I scored some from a tackle shop in England.
The thread that Loricraft is using now is not as good, not as supple.
BTW, No Empire turntables were harmed in the making or use of this record cleaning machine.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Looks like a nice machine you've made! I'm in the process of building something similar myself. If you don't mind me asking, what pump did you use?
I'm not familiar with the design (Monk's or yours) ... is the thread involved in cleaning or just suction ... perhaps to create a gap between the nozzle and record?
Never trust an Atom, they Make Up everything!
"perhaps to create a gap between the nozzle and record"That's the only reason for it being there.
It's just a spacer.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 04/16/14
Beautiful !
I admire your resourcefulness and engineering prowess.
I wish you were marketing Tre' RCM's I'd be your first customer.
Regards Ferd
I build tube amplifiers also.
I have built a few for others but don't like to.
I would much prefer to help others build but with you in Wisconsin and me in California........that's not going to happen. :-)
If you decide to "give it a go" I would offer whatever help I can over the phone.
Building a nozzle type RMC is not hard but there were a few tricks that I had to figure out. I would be willing to past them on to you.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
The war on "Slot VS. Nozzle" was over in 1980 when HP cleaned a record on his brand new perfectly working Keith Monks machine and then on the 1/7th the price HW-16. The Monks cleaned record sounded cleaner after going through the 16 but it did not work the other way around !!!!!!!!
Can we not change history because we like to do it, this test has already been done!!! The motor in the HW-16.5 will lift mercurey 120", more than enough vacuum to clean any disc microscopically clean.
HW
"The war on "Slot VS. Nozzle" was over in 1980 when HP cleaned a record on his brand new perfectly working Keith Monks machine and then on the 1/7th the price HW-16. The Monks cleaned record sounded cleaner after going through the 16 but it did not work the other way around !!!!!!!!
Can we not change history because we like to do it, this test has already been done!!! "
So Harry's test is the end all beat all, end of story?
That doesn't sound very scientific to me.
"The motor in the HW-16.5 will lift mercurey 120",.........."
I not sure what you mean.
The way I understand it, vacuum is measured in inches Hg. Normal atmosphere pressure is 29.9" Hg.
If we connect a vacuum pump to a closed container and lower the pressure by 29.9" Hg we have a perfect vacuum, 0" Hg. This is not doable. It would take a pump capable of "pulling" 29.9" of mercury and as far as I know there's no such thing.
You must be using a different form of measurement.
"....... more than enough vacuum to clean any disc microscopically clean."
I'm sure there is enough but that's not the question.
Does the part of the record surface that's below the vacuum slot go from being fully wet to fully dry the moment the vacuum is turned on so that there is no chance of evaporation and re-depositing of dirt?
If it does then there is no advantage in the nozzle type machine over your slot type machine.
This would mean that the pads would also have to be completely dried the moment the vacuum is turned on, otherwise some of the cleaning fluid (and dirt) would be left behind to evaporate on the surface of the record while waiting for the record to come back around to the pads (and vacuum slot).
If your machine does all that then I'm all wrong. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
My core question and the reason I believe that nozzle machines are inherently superior;
"Does the part of the record surface that's below the vacuum slot go from being fully wet to fully dry the moment the vacuum is turned on so that there is no chance of evaporation and re-depositing of dirt?"
Here's the answer I found in the directions of use for both the HW 17 and the HW 16.5
"13. After the record has completed two revolutions, move the VACUUM switch down to the off position. When the Vacuum Pickup Tube lifts off the record rotate it until it points toward the back of the unit.
Two revolutions are usually sufficient to remove all of the cleaning fluid and leave the record completely dry. If some fluid remains on the record, turn on the VACUUM switch for two more revolutions."
It is my contention that, at least part of, the cleaning fluid that is left on the partially dried record surface that leaves the vacuum slot area will evaporate while waiting to come back around to the vacuum slot for a second attempt at drying.
It is my contention that any evaporation of the cleaning fluid will leave some of the dirt, that was suspended in that cleaning fluid, on the surface of the record.
It is my contention that this process will repeat itself for any subsequent revolutions necessary to completely dry the record.
With the Keith Monks that I used years ago at a local Hi-Fi shop and the nozzle type machine that I built, the record surface is completely dry as it leaves the nozzle area and therefore there is no evaporation or re-depositing of dirt possible.
Now, how much difference does any of this really make in the real world?
I have no idea!
I just wanted everyone to understand the reason behind my thinking.
Thanks.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Why doesn't someone using a electron microscope show us to difference. any one ?
Already done in TAS 20 years ago. Clean is clean, anything else is changing the record.
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