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In Reply to: RE: Abbey Road MFSL - disappointed posted by zutroye on June 25, 2012 at 20:20:07
In case anyone is still interested...
The volume level difference between the two is about 7db. i.e. i have to turn the volume up ~7db on the MFSL to match the volume level of the UK pressing.
Follow Ups:
MFSL had their LPs pressed at JVC Japan and they were pressed on something JVC called Super Vinyl. Its translucent and very wear resistant. JVC developed it for use with the CD-4 format quad system.
One of the great things about Super Vinyl is that it was about 3db quieter than any other vinyl available at the time of those pressings. As a result the LPs were cut to take advantage of the lower noise floor.
The lower level on quieter vinyl yields a LP with greater dynamic range and it also means that the mastering engineer could cut the lacquer without using any compression or peak limiting (or much less of any of that stuff).
The down side to this is that inexperienced listeners consider MFSL pressings less dynamic sounding when in fact they are have more dynamic range than commercial pressings. People also complain that MFSL pressings have less "drive" than commercial pressings.
That term almost always means that the LP being referred to as having more "drive" is the one with more compression. Those who complain about this type of thing may as well listen to MP3s and CDs since they have the ultimate "drive".
Ed
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
The rumor is/was that the JVC Super Vinyl formulation was lost, actually destroyed, when it became apparent that vinyl was dead in the late 80's, early 90's. It will be interesting to see if given vinyl's resurrection if the Super Vinyl will become Lazarus as well. There were complaints/comments that there was a characteristic "sound" that permeated all of the MSFL pressings of that era. Is is possible that the Super Vinyl formulation was responsible for that?
I think even though the JVC "Super Vinyl" formulation is still patented it was found to be too toxic in its manufacturing process for the Japanese Industry Standards....which controlled record pressing in Japan.
I think the best formulations are more about quiet surfaces. Some say a harder vinyl like the Super Vinyl can be a little brighter than softer formulations like German ones. I think the characteristic "sound" of mofi’s were more about mastering and eq decisions than the Super Vinyl formulation. Personally I find the Pallas and Clarity formulations to be some of the best being used today.
And the Super Vinyl formulation was not about being harder, which it isn't, its about its ability to stress, deform and recover without forming any cracks. If the vinyl in question is too hard its also a problem.I'm trying to remember and I'll find the information if I can but it had to do with the research JVC did into the problem of vinyl fatigue, yes it is a problem with some formulations, and how to create a vinyl that could stress and recover indefinately.
The 30kHz carrier and difference information that is required to make CD-4 work pushed the envelope on vinyl formulations and they needed something where that 30kHz would not get lopped off. Too hard or too soft or anything that would not stress and recover indefinately and you have a problem. The formulation they came up with uses something that is not that unusual but its just the mixture of the plasticizers with the PVC that's the ticket.
Like I said, I'll try to find the information and I'll post it here if I do.
Ed
UPDATE: The formulation is officially known as Q-540 vinyl
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
Edits: 06/27/12
well...i'd say it was a harder and stronger formulation than what cbs was using for quads...which was the intent of both rca and jvc and also what drew the initial interest from mofi
Put no extra requirements on the vinyl whatsoever since SQ was an out of phase recording technique. CD-4 was an entirely different animal. It didn't work very well, but when it did work it was capable of much better seperation than any of the quad matrix techniques (SQ, QS, ABC Command Quad and any of the others that I may have left out).
I'm trying to find the patent filing for Q-540 vinyl. That will tell the story of their approach.
Ed
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
To the vinly is it's quietness. MoFi were not alone in being able to produce LPs as quiet as they did back in those days. I believe that Reference Recordings also had their LPs pressed at JVC Japan on Super Vinyl but I don't own any of these so someone else will have to chime in to verify this. Nautilus and some other speciality pressings used a very quiet vinyl as well.
There are some that perpetuate a rumor that MoFi used some sort of equalization boosting or some such nonsense. I own over 40 MoFis from that era and I also own the corresponding commercial pressings for a lot of those. I have played both the MoFi and the corresponding commercial pressings more than a handful of times and there is nothing in the way of boosting or cutting of any specific frequency that I can figure out.
What I can figure out is that MoFi did cut their lacquers at a lower level, most likely due to the fact they had an additional 3db of head room, due to the vinyl being used at JVC Japan. They also use less compression and peak limiting, again due to the fact they had more headroom.
Whatever they used they used less of it compared to commercial pressings. This sometimes worked in favor of MoFi and sometimes people didn't like the outcome. MoFi pressings sometimes sound less dynamic than commercial pressings. The word "dynamic" amuses me since the MoFi pressing is, in fact, much more dynamic. I think a better word might be "drive".
Whatever word you use, MoFi produced a pressing on better vinyl, that I believe was more faithful to the original stereo master tape. If you prefer the commercial pressing then it is probably due to the fact that the resulting product benefitted from whatever the mastering engineer did when they cut the lacquer.
MoFi did screw up. I have a copy of that abomination they did for Jethro Tull - Aqualung. I don't know if this was what they were handed to use (Aqualung had a few masters floating around due to the state of the original master) or they were somehow asked to do this, whatever it was the LP ended up with way too much bass energy and an opportunity was lost.
Producing LPs is as much an art form as a product of engineering. MoFi produced some damm fine art work and some things that didn't quite work out. All of them are collectors items and they are all damm fine pressings.
You can't ask much more from a record company.
Ed
PS The new MoFi is a damm good operation as well.
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
I don't think there is a 'rumor' about the EQ on the early MFSL product. Can't find the link but as I recall Stan Ricker himself stated he used the EQ because that is what they wanted. And my ears tell me many of titles had a fair amount of boost at the extreme. Some with like this others will not.
Some of the early MFSL records are fantastic. Some of them are turds. Like anything else. Listen to Steely Dan 'Aja' and tell me they did not use a huge amount of EQ boosting the frequency extremes. The thing is unlistenable. The standard ABC pressing simply smokes the MFSL version.
There are others.
When MFSL got it right they were a revelation like the bulk of the Beatles catalogue. When they got it wrong they were barking dogs. Every title must be evaluated on their own merit.
I actually find the second generation MFSL, once the original company got back into vinyl, to be far more consistent title-to-title than the original catalogue.
Hard to make a generalization about any labels product.
I have both MFSL Aja and the orginal ABC pressing. I'll make 24/96 WAVs of a track on that LP, match levels on the digital recordings, post it on my web site where everyone can get to it and be back.Aja is not my favorite Steely Dan LP so it gets little play but I'll drag it out for a test.
Ed
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
Edits: 06/29/12
nt
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read"
he might have talked about it in his long interview in positive feedback...i think the cardas site has the interview in three parts. i know in that interview he talks about the jvc super vinyl being harder than anything available in the US and jvc was where he met brad miller of mofi
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