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Mike Fremer was at a local audio shop playing some 24/96 files recorded from his home setup - some very expensive rig. Basically his recordings left a full blown lp12 with olympos cartridge in th shade. His files were some of the best sound I have heard. But it got me to thinking that mf hardly mentions SUTs. I am pretty certain that he uses a SS phono pre. In my experience, the best SUT / tube phono pre combination was far and away better than any SS phono-pre I have thus far heard. So I am wondering why mf seems to be SUT adverse. He mentioned in his talk that he is not a hobbiest, i.e. He does not tube roll or ever try to embellish manufacturers products. He is a strict 'consumerist'. Use the product as the manufacturer sent it. Further, he admits that he is mathematically challenged, and by extension electronically challenged.
It seems to me that to get SUTs right you have to have a little basic understanding of math and electronics, or get someone to do the thinking for you. So is mf giving SUTs short shrift because they aren't in his comfort zone, or is the best SS phono pre just superior to SUTs?. If it is the former, I would like to see him do some serious investigation into SUTs given that he has some of the best vinyl playback at his disposal and given that after listening to his demo l don't question that he has good ears.
Follow Ups:
Seems to me that your underlying theme is that you like SUTs with tube phono stages, and it bugs you that Fremer does not like SUTs. (I believe you are correct in that assumption; he has said as much.) It also seems to bother you that his digitized copies sounded so good to you. For that matter, I like tube phono stages that have enough gain such that a SUT is never necessary. I have been in this hobby for 35 years and never even owned a SUT. It does not bother me one bit what Fremer prefers or what you prefer; I can actually imagine why each of you may prefer what you prefer. And I am not at all mathematically or electronically challenged, build a lot of my own gear. It's a big audio world and a free country. Why not enjoy the variety? (Personally, if I had to, I would go from all tubes to tubes plus SUT before I would go to SS phono; i have heard many good ones, but none of them ring my bell.)
Actually I am just curious rather than bothered. I loved the demo of his digital recordings. It just showed me how great his rig is. I had the same experience when a friend sent me digital recordings of his tricked out 301 with a Air Tight Supreme and Allnic h3000. It helped me to calibrate where my own system is at in relative terms. As regards SUTs, I would like to see him explore them because phono-preamps have such a profound effect on the final sonic result. He has all of the surrounding equipment to pass on some interesting insights. But for some reason, he doesn't seem to be into them much. I am speculating that it might be because SUTs are more of a "hobbiest" thing, rather than a plug and play piece of gear. This distinction is one that he made about himself in a conversation after the demo.
As for MF himself, so many people bash him on the web that I was prepared for the worst. I left the demo with a great deal of respect for his ears, honesty, and enthusiasm.
Fremer uses the Ypsilon external SUT's in his current reference setup.
He also reviews the Music First SUT in the latest issue - though he states a clear preference for the Ypsilon SUT.
FWIW he's also commented favorably on many phono amps that use (internal) SUT's - Manley, EAR, Lamm, Allnic etc. I can't see what your issue is?
System Details
I must admit that I read Stereophile rather spotily, so my impressions are perhaps poorly informed. I did not know that his current reference is the Ypsilon (and its external SUT). Anyway, what I think I am getting at is that I would like to see him do more reviews of external SUTs. The internal SUTs are often unavailable as separates. So reviews of some of the usual suspects, like Hashimoto, Cinemag, Lundhal, etc, through his current rig would be useful for me.
Based on what Paul wrote, we are both off base. I did assume that your basic premise was correct, that Fremer does not care for SUTs in general. Guess he does care for some of them, if they are sufficiently pricy and unobtainable. But I also agree that he is excessively bashed on the internet; he is not a bad guy at all. However, I am still SUT-less in Bethesda.
I own a Silvaweld phono stage, which I use only for MM and MI cartridges. The Silvaweld products were designed and built by Mr. Park, who lately is the designer of Allnic products. It is quite interesting to me the 180-degree difference in design philosophy between the Silvaweld phono and the Allnic H1500 and H3000 phono stages. The Silvaweld uses a JFET at its MC inputs to boost gain before the signal is fed to a tube-based RIAA corrector. If you use the MM inputs, the signal goes directly to that first tube in the RIAA. There are zero audio transformers, let alone any SUTs, in the Silvaweld. Further, the Silvaweld uses a conventional RC network to effect RIAA equalization. However, as you may know, the Allnic stuff uses a plethora of transformers, including a SUT for MC cartridge inputs. Plus it uses LCR for RIAA. It would be of interest to know why and by what process Mr. Park changed his approach to design.
Art seems to be the resident SUT enthusiast at Stereophile.
I suppose it would be interesting to get Mikey's take on a few of the SUT's you mention.
System Details
He also reviewed the Music First step-up, which uses the Stevens and Billington TX103 transformers, in the last issue of S'phile, June 2012. So I am not sure where this idea that he hardly mentions transformers comes from.
Yes, Mikey seems to be very enthusiastic about the Ypsilon SUT's - and unlike the phono stage (which costs $26000) the 3 different gain SUT's are relatively affordable (though still expensive) at $2800 ea.
System Details
as phono stage and Ypsilon MC20 as SUT. If I remembered correctly I think the whole set up set him back around $40K, if he'd paid the full price.
If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing well
(Proverb)
I know, stop calling you Shirley!!But to the subject, I doubt if any reviewer EVER paid full price. After much discussion, Mikey admitted he received a substantial discount for his Continuum table and arm for example.
The only exception to accommodation pricing I know of are those that simply accept components on "long term loan", even if that runs into years
"For a nominal service fee,
you can reach nirvana tonight."
Edits: 05/28/12
To get an SUT to sound amazing it will probably take a genius like Dave Slagle using quality iron and amazingly pure OCC copper or silver to get to the true high end of audio.Check out Dave's work. He is not only a genius he is also the real deal when it comes to anything transformer based. His work not only amazes me, it is the pinnacle of high fidelity sound reproduction.
Contrast the transformer based gain with solid state.
Jim Hagerman builds a head amp called the Piccolo. This is under $500.00 from what I remember. I own two of these and they are the quietest and most user friendly step up devices you will ever come across. They are solid state active circuits.
Jim uses JFETs and zero negative feedback to accomplish the goal. It's a world class product at an affordable price. I built mine with seriously quiet capacitors and superb resistors.
So if Mike Fremer likes using Solid State gear that is non fussy that is just one fellow's personal decision as to how they approach audio.
Don't think for a minute that means Mike Fremer is an ascetic. His equipment is space age with great flexibility and user friendly conveniences. The gear is also beyond most of our budgets. Some guys have all the luck!
I only own one SUT now, it is a CineMag with all three gains. I like it for my Denon cartridges. The two were meant for each other.
For any other MC's in my system the Hagerman Piccolo sounds more dynamic, has less sibilance, and allows me to sellect cartridge loading on the fly. This is great when albums run hot to cold. With a flip of the switch I can tame a beast or spur a mule.
For me this kind of flexibility allows me the most smiles per listening minute.
I am not affiliated with Jim Hagerman or Dave Slagle other than the fact that they amaze me with their passion and creativity in deliving music that sounds life like and natural.
For me, I love the Piccolo. With the right parts, Jim Hagerman's head amp sounds amazing. You can read up on the product at http://www.hagtech.com
I rarely own two of anything. If I own two Piccolo's that means I no longer feel the need to look for the holy grail of SUT's.
"Help support our school's Music programs"
Edits: 05/28/12
I don't understand something. Is the Piccolo used instead of a SUT or is it a phono preamp with it's own RIAA network? Thanks
We referred to these as head amps if they were active circuits.
Basically they can sound better than SUT's in the sense that you can match input and output resistance values more predictably than an SUT.
SUT transformers are generally microphone step ups. With a a microphone you have power going into the device in many cases so you need a transformer to break the noise connection and eliminate feedback
You have to build these quiet and the Piccolo is outstanding when built with quality electrolytics, film capacitors and resistors.
You can read up more on http://www.hagtech.com
"Help support our school's Music programs"
The solid-state Piccolo is used instead of the SUT, ahead of the MM phono preamp.
Similarly the solid-state Graham Slee Elevator EXP is a headamp also used ahead of a MM phono preamp.
These bring the gain up to sufficient levels to accommodate a MC cartridge with the MM phono.
I own a couple Bob's Devices CineMag SUTs and I had the Graham Slee Elevator EXP. In my system, I found the SUTs to be noticeably superior to the Elevator EXP headamp.
The SUTs often made my MM phono preamps sound more robust and dynamic vs the Elevator EXP headamp.
I have yet to try the Hagerman Piccolo headamp, but I hope to compare it to my SUTs someday.
.......Mikey refers to his Manley Steelhead phono preamp which contains switchable loading to accommodate the needs of many different and diverse phono cartridges. Link below to a description/review of the Steelhead. It describes a "variable load auto tranny". Perhaps a fancy name for a complicated step up transformer within the Manley.
Then again, if you search the archives at Stereophile, you can find some reviews of commercially available SUT's that Fremer has written.
When it comes to Stereophile and SUT's you'll find more descriptions of them in Art Dudley's column. He seems to routinely review commercially available SUT's. He's also reviewed some of his own DIY SUT solder-up jobs.
-Steve
That's interesting.
"variable load auto tranny" in MF's Manley phono.
Sounds like a form of Step Up Transformer to me.
One of my favorite sounding tube phonos was the Rogue Ares ($2000 USD), and it used a pair of CineMag SUT's for MC gain.
he's managed to do okay for himself without SUTs. Everybody has their own areas of interest, and non-interest, even within a highly specialized hobby like LP playback.
I don't think you particularly have to be a math wiz to use an SUT though. Maybe you should ask him about his experience with SUTs? I'd be surprised if he had little to no experience with them. In my experience he's pretty good about responding to email queries.
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