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To me the golden age of solid state Japanese receivers would be early 70's to late 70's. I have fond memory's owning or lusting after them.
We know most of that great gear is past its expiration date today. Can this gear truly be rebuilt to near spec and be safe to use? Yes, most electrolytic caps can be had but there is much more to it than that.
Follow Ups:
I'm sure there are plenty of Japanese receivers still out there pleasing their owners.
My own sort-of-beater Marantz 26 is still clocking along, playing my McIntosh MR77 tuner through the Aux input and a BIC turntable/Pickering cartridge into the Phono, about as good as I need right now.
If you go back to the mid to late 70s,a new Sansui 9090DB receiver cost between 349 and 425 on average.They were not sold in mid level or high end audio stores and this goes for Pioneer and later Marantz as well.
A Pioneer SX-1280 would sell for about 525 to 549.Keep in mind these were what these units sold for because they were sold at discount appliance stores such as Highland Appliance, and Fretter Appliance,Best buy,and J&R music world.There are many more places as well but I mentioned the Michigan based stores.
An Onkyo TX-4500mk2,sold for 750.00 and they didn't discount those because they were sold in mid to high end audio stores.
Now,if you look at the price of the Sansui,Pioneer,Marantz,or whatever,they are fetching buckoo money on the used market where the Onkyo is bringing very little. Who would have thought.
Pioneer,Marantz,and Sansui,all went into making high end products in later years that were sold i exclusive stores.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
Scott 340B
Harman Kardon TA-260
Fisher 800c
Mikey, I don't get it.
I mean those 70s battleships look cool with their fancy faceplates and all those buttons and knobs, but at the end of the day they are all solid state and sound like it.
Having grown up in the 70s, I have heard countless Marantz, Pioneer, Sansui, Onkyo, and Yamaha receivers paired with all manner of speakers. While they all sound decent, none of them could compete with the units pictured above when it came to producing a holographic, wide & deep sound stage - Just saying.
I guess the 70s receivers can sound OK, but it must be more of a nostalgic thing because the tube receivers from 15 to 20 years earlier (that were built slightly before I was) kill those blingy overly complicated boat anchors of the 70s when it comes to sound - In my opinion....
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
I agree but would add that now you are getting back into the classic good vs. evil, opps I meant tubes vs. SS debate.
At the end of the day I do agree that sound wise the classic 70's receiver was clearly not king of the hill. However it was a niche, a need, a preference, a style or what ever it was. But any way you describe it, it defined 70's audio and that big sound.
If ANYTHING good came out of those receivers it was this. A brief time where companies took pride in their product and were actually TRYING to make a better product than there competitor. Finally the consumer was the winner.
When anyone thinks of 70's audio what do they think of. Those hulking 125 watt monster receivers with all those lights, dials, knobs and 8 dozen filter switches. Even in the movies or TV what do you see on those sets - receivers.
I no longer own any receivers but SS does have a niche as well. It's not vintage or even tubes but I absolutely enjoy and would never give up my new NAD C275BEE power amp. And that's coming from a tube guy!!!
When anyone thinks of 70's audio what do they think of. Those hulking 125 watt monster receivers with all those lights, dials, knobs and 8 dozen filter switches.Never was a receiver guy. My first and last one was an Electrophonic T-600 purchased when I was 13. Two years later, I moved to the AR Integrated which I thought had a clean, functional appearance.
What I lusted for as a teenager was not the "gee-whiz-Wally" sort of stuff you mention. Instead, what I found more impressive was the instrumentation grade appearance of stuff from Audio Research like you would see in the NASA firing room. I remember how cool it was seeing a rack like this:
Still do forty plus years later. :)
Edits: 10/24/16
Where's the on button?
That thing looks like it launches nuclear missiles.
I had more humble dreams. Just a Marantz receiver and Barbara Eden sitting naked in my bean bag chair wearing the Jennie hat.
the amplifier pictured is two thirds of a rare prototype Dual 400 tube amp. The actual rack I saw had a pair of D-76s along with SP-3a and EC-4 crossover.
Click here for more stuff in the ARC library. Scroll down for more pics of the Dual 400.
I've said it before, but my perspective of audio and music reproduction was forever changed in 1974 when I heard tri-amped Tympani III speakers driven by Audio Research gear (Crown DC300A on woofers) at Fat Julian's Audio in Atlanta. I had never heard anything before that approached that level of three dimensional realism.
I'm still a fan of tube driven large planar dipoles. :)
I think that the buyers of these 70's Behemoths are trying to recapture the youth they never had. These are the receivers that they drooled over when they bought their 35 watters. Now that they can afford one, why not? They are great conversation pieces.
The truth be told, I have an Onkyo TX-5000 sitting on the shelf that I bought for next to nothing. I thought it would be a fun project. OK, 65 WPC is not that big, but this thing is physically big and heavy. It really looks the part! As Mike said, they don't seem to be fetching very high prices though!
Dave
I uesed a Onkyo TX-4500mkii in my garage for about a year. And yes it looked the part. I couldn't even begin to list the receivers I've had over the years. but obviously I don't have them anymore.
In the end they was replaced and bested by a string of separates - Sansui AU-7900, Pioneer SA-9500 (oh I hated that amp), McIntosh MA5200 and 6200, Onkyo CA810 and 610 and a few dozen I've long since forgotten about.
However I was realizing even then that my taste leaned towards tubes.
I finally stayed with and loved the Scott 299c (or was it b?) which disappeared from my garage one summer day believe it or not!!!!
But today I would say it goes on a case by case basis. Some SS is good while the vast majority you couldn't even give me. Also don't forget there are also crappy tube amps out there as well.
Pioneer,Marantz,and Sansui,all went into making high end products in later years
Musta missed out on all the Pioneer and Sansui "high end" products. :)
Yes, Saul made some really nice tube stuff in prior years.
I recall listening to a killer Class A amp by pioneer. Sansui had some tuners that were SOTA. Marantz had a few separates in the 80's that I would consider high end. Even Sanyo tried to get into high end in the 80's. I think all of the major companies made high end gear, but a lot of it never made it out of Japan. I sold Kyocera in the 80's and they made fantastic stuff. I still have a PL-601 sprung turntable from them that is very nice. (I have to many turntables!) See link for the specs. In looking at the specs, I should get a cartridge on this thing. This think looks like it could give my LP-12 a run for its money!
Dave
I recall listening to a killer Class A amp by pioneer. Sansui had some tuners that were SOTA.
Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn. :)
Tuners?
Neither of those brands were committed to consistently building products that proved to be among the best sounding.
Kyocera wasn't previously mentioned.
whaa?
I wasn't sure what you meant here?
So what you're saying was the high end store stuff didn't resell well and the "midfi" store stuff did resell well???
I had that Onkyo TX-4500mkii for about a year and it did had CLASS. I have NO idea why I sold it off???? It was in my horse trading dazes.
Maybe one of THE most stunning looking receivers ever made, are the OPTONICA made in Japan line.
An OPTONICA blackface, with the aluminum tear drop shaped knobs, is practically a work of art.
Sonically, they are MUCH closer to Yamaha than Marantz.
Steve
I hesitate to ever recommend a reciever. Too much stuff crammed into too small a space. The radio part in these units tends to cause the most problems (in terms of restore) and one has to question how viable that format is....even now, leave alone the future.
That said the better units of that vintage had reasonable build quality. Their ratings were more conservative than todays mass market stuff.
For example I have a couple of sansui 9090db's. Forget about keeping the dolby radio right....just not worth the cost and effort....nor is there a need. If it came right down to it, and I had to convert them to nothing more than straight power amps, they would still be worth the price IMHO.
So I think you need to ask yourself what it is you want. A part of yesterday? Something at a price point that will continue to function affordably for a period of time?
What tends to make things unrepairable in the future are when lots of things are stuffed into a "chip" and that chip is longer obtainable. Sometimes it is the actual transistors/fets used but that isn't often. In that sense the units you are talking about are mostly far more repairable than newer units will be in their distant future.
There are units, like the HK's with dual power supplies, that actually had darn good preamp sections. But frankly most of the tone/preamp circuits are bettered by todays designs. What isn't better is the massive power transformers and heatsinks.
So I'd guess in a round about way I'd be saying to look at them more as power amps only and go for the house sound you like.
IMHO one would be crazy silly to buy one for a few hundred dollars on ebay and then pay someone another few hundred bucks to restore. They just aren't worth 700-1,000+ bucks in todays sound quality IMHO. But if you can grab a yard sale item for cheap, strip it down, toss a bunch of resistors and caps in it....and end up with a power amp that will play 100 watts per channel all day long into the worst speaker load in the world....well you could do a lot worse.
There are still a few people that have a quality FM station in there area. When I lived in NJ I obviously wasn't one of them! Even with my network player I find myself listening to only two or three favorite stations. And I have about a thousand (in the classical genre) or so to choose from.
But don't forget how much looks come into play in audio. How many times have we heard "those big blue meters" when people refer to McIntosh. Not the sound but those meters. Those looks account for a significant percentage of McIntosh sales.
The receiver was one of the "show pieces" in audio. It had it all, looks, lights, dials, knobs, switches, filters.... It was a wonderland of options and fun. A perfect marriage of form and function.
Sure it had it's downfalls. But those were the very SAME downfalls even the high end separates had. Like preamp sections with far too many connections, controls and yes - even the same tone circuits.
Yes trade offs had to be made to put all that in one box. However the engineers of that time did a fantastic job doing just that. Companies took pride in selling something "great" and one upping the competition. It was a great but brief time in audio where the consumer WAS the WINNER.
Personally I don't use many vintage preamps. And yes for the very reasons you did mention. However I do like vintage amps. And that is why I am having a Marantz 250M restored to match up with my new Conrad Johnson classic 2SE preamp.
But receivers - a work of art and if I had the room or money I would have an entire collection of them restored.
Charles, take that 9090db I mentioned. Introduced in 1975 with a MSRP of 900 bucks.
That is a little over 4 grand today. I don't know about you but I wouldn't pay 4 grand for a receiver even if I could afford to!
But you are talking about a time when a hand calculator with simple functions cost hundreds of dollars.
There was a lot of hands on assembly in those units. Big parts, discrete components, most hand soldered.
Try pricing an equivalent receiver today. It would be over $4k.
But I think the OP was are they worth it today to restore
You have made a very good point Russ, particularly in light of the fact that top notch tuners are readilly available for net to nothing. For this reason, I have focused my vintage collecting on separates.
I still think that there are sound reasons why a person might still wan't to restore a receiver. The receiver my be an object of lust from youth. There are some receivers that have retained enough of their value that it is worth the restore. Certain Marantz and McIntosh models come to mind. There are also models where the performance is good enough to warrant a rebuild, as long as you don't plan to sell it (Kyocera, Yamaha, Denon, Luxman). This would make most sense if you DIY. If you paying someone, the list would be small (IMO).
Although the original poster was focusing on 70's ears receiver, if sound is what you are after, I would recommend looking to the 80's and even early 90's. Although many brands were on a downhill slide, Denon, Yamaha, Kyocera, Sony ES and Nakamichi made some very high quality equipment, which often only need minor work.
Dave
I
Dave you are correct there are better tuners to be found other than what the typical mid 70's receiver was equipped with. We are lucky here to have a few good FM stations today. But for how long.
In my case its simple nostalgia to own and use one again.
Fortunately I have a few good stations in my area. I have a bunch of amazing tuners that I payed nothing for. My current heavy hitter is a B&K tuner that is really a Fanfare without the remote. The ergonomics suck, but boy does this thing sound good!I do have a working Carver receiver, which is supposedly very good. There are some mods on the web, recommended by Eli that are supposed to make it kick-ass. We shall see.
Dave
Edits: 10/18/16
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It is the B&K TS-108. I think that it is the only Tuner that B&K ever made. It was made when B&W and Fanfare were in the same facility.
Dave
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Those units will likely easily last another 50 yrs.
More important question though is most who lust after them, remember these units when they were new.
Today's kids have no memory of that. In 50 years, even if they are still running, those young kids today may care less.
In 50 years, in the unlikely event that I am still around, I doubt I will care, either!
Dave
In 20 or 30 years I would agree with you but today there is a real interest in those old units.
There are a bunch of older units that are worth looking at if you want to go that route-
Pioneer has many followers - the gear was well build originally and usually does not need too much "replaced"
there are a few Yamaha fans here - and they will readily sing the praises (I have purchased an older Yamaha for my father- he is very happy)
The Kenwood kit seem to be in third place - though they had some of the best tuners of the period-
The Luxman equipment can be good if it is not one of the too complicated models - retractable face plate, etc.
There are some other 'house' brands that were made in Japan - MCS comes to mind - that have some redeeming aspects - but i have no experience with them -
Happy Listening
A beast of a receiver that a person I know actually shop lifted.
When I was a young man me and a few guys ended up in a Korvettes with one of the local "bad kids" His 17 or 18? birthday was coming up and he told us that if he got caught he would still be charged as a minor. He also said that shop lifting is all attitude. His plan was to look pissed that his stereo didn't work and he was trying to return it. Ok that was HIS story.
Darn if he didn't unplug it, pick it up and walk two floors down and right out the front door.
MCS? Many of them appeared to be manufactured by Emerson and Sanyo, just as the lower-cost Realistics did.
Whenever my kid's dust covers break on their Technics SL-QXX turntables, I find cheap MCS copies that fit exactly. These are the dust covers that have plastic protrusions on the back that slide into metal hinges. Most of the MCS tables are the cheaper servo type instead of the quartz controlled variety.
Some of the MCS receivers were from Technics; but later and lower end models were not and really sucked.
Jerry
Are you kidding - it sure can be restored and be better than when it was new.
Example: Take a look at the link below These are pictures of a guy doing restorations on a Marantz 1060 RIGHT NOW.
I'm having a Marantz 250M restored next month.
The best part is that these stereos Are worth the cost of rebuilding and CAN be restored. Unlike more modern stuff that once it's aged out it's highly unlikely it's even salvageable.
Unlike more modern stuff that once it's aged out it's highly unlikely it's even salvageable.
modern junk.
High quality brands can be maintained essentially forever.
Ok ya got me. I was over simplifying and generalizing a little too much. Like a midfi piece of audio from Best Buy. But yes if you're getting into the upper end it they will also live forever like a Pioneer SX-750.
But with a simple caveat and that's stereos that have SMD boards. I can't see anyone wanting to work on that stuff if a drop in board isn't available.
The 1060 in that AK thread is looking good.
The poster who chimed in to help the restorer in that thread is the gentleman who did a stem-to-stern rebuild of my Marantz 2230, 8 years ago. I'm still delighted with the work that Catrafter (Tom) did. Paired with rehabbed Dynaco A25 speakers in my secondary system the 2230 performs quite musically with FM, phono, cassette, and CD, and looks great doing it. The cost of the rebuild was a worthy investment from my point of view.
Jim
"Lesser artists borrow, great artists steal." Igor Stravinsky
Thanks Jim good to know there is at least one expert for those old receivers.
Actually there are quite a few guys that are restoring these things. And doing a wonderful work extending their lives.
Toms a great guy. He's the Mike Samra of the Marantz forum. Patron Saint of old Marantz receivers.
Does nice work eh!
No doubts. Tom does excellent work that is also highly respectful of the unit and its circuits, and no arrogance.Right now I'm using the 2230 as a phono stage in my main system, while my tubed George Wright unit is being serviced. It is sounding quite good, playing classical and acoustic jazz through my Audiomat Prelude Reference amp.
"Lesser artists borrow, great artists steal." Igor Stravinsky
Edits: 10/17/16 10/17/16
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