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In Reply to: RE: A paper I wrote 11 years ago. posted by Bold Eagle on July 18, 2016 at 20:03:35
I like your whats important list. I stress image more than anyone I know but second is right as I see it. On your what doesnt matter list I must vihemently disagree with 1,2 and 4. I use only unshielded cable, even on my old phono rig, which was noise free by the way. Unshielded interconnect and power cables have shown to give the best image in my system. Vibration isolation is important on digital too and amps but less so on the latter. I like the Speltz anticable interconnect, their base model I consider a giant killer. Not hard to DIY if you can. Im also big on audiophile grade AC outlets AND a heavy vibration damping cover like the Oyaide. Hubbells werent much better than what came with the house. I love regenerators @120Hz for low current sources and parallel filtering/chokes for high current stuff. I think youd notice a difference even on the older mid fi stuff in your post below and easily on more modern hi fi gear in $5-10K systems and up.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
Edits: 07/19/16Follow Ups:
Unshielded interconnects will have the lowest capacitance. I do make my own 12" interconnects from low capacitance/ft. cable, as I have found it affects the sound of CD players and other upstream components.
Have you tried hospital grade outlets? They are red or red-orange in color and have a separate ground circuit so ground is not tied to the box or conduit; but must be wired separately by wire back to a common ground point. Daisy chaining of outlets is not allowed. The requirements are also the same for labs where low level measurements are made.
In speakers; but also in systems overall, I have found that the overall frequency response at your listening position must be monotonically declining above 1000 Hz. In other words, a smooth response with no peaks of dips that is continually decreasing. Peaks in the mids and highs confuse the image. I have a 1/6 octave RTA, and as the in-room system response gets closer to that ideal, the soundstage, including depth clues gets better. Better, smoother response, tweeters helped my system a lot. A really smooth system has a non-loud, non-bright quality, yet everything is there. I found 1 meter interconnects on my CD players introduced a false brightness that went away with very short ones made from low capacitance stock. Using unshielded cables would lower capacitance even more if they are just long enough to reach. "Gizmo" recommended that approach.
If you've read my posts, you'll realize I have maybe $1600 tied up in my system. At that cost level, the sound quality depends a lot on component matching, some DIY, and trying to find the best value gear. On the other hand, I've heard some really mediocre sound from $30,000 systems.
I'm a retired engineer, and so the underlying physics has to make sense. I measure a lot of things; but ultimately listening is necessary. For measurements alone to work, you'd have to have a positive and proven correlation to the audible consequences. You'd have to know everything to measure, and you'd have to validate that with several different systems. There have been a number of attempts at perfect speakers; but with only 2 channels and a typical real room nothing to date has been perfect.
By the way, "mid-fi" is a pejorative term coined by the high end industry to denigrate mass market gear and separate themselves. You won't find it in literature before about 1980. That's when the high end broke away from the CES. That's also the time speaker wire turned into "cable" and patch cords became "interconnects". Small boutique companies do have higher costs because they don't have the advantage of volume, they also have heavier construction and better finish; but it doesn't necessarily mean they sound better, or match each other better. You still have to be a discerning shopper, open minded, and a good listener.
Jerry
I found an article years ago written by some engineers in northern California that did an impressive investigation of interconnects using spectrum analyzers and distortion meters. The bottom line was the lower the capacitance the better. Included in the article was how they made their test cables which I shamelessly plagurized (now who does that sound like). I have used these particulary ugly interconnects ever since and are very happy with them. Basically they are high grade connectors and wire inside of individual teflon tubing. One teflon tube contains the signal, the other the ground, so four tubes for stereo, as short as will do the job.
Kind of like these?
I stumbled across some gold wire I bought a long time ago and had forgotten about, and although I'm not a cable DIY'er, I figured it was a crime to continue to let that beautiful wire sit in a bag. My favorite interconnects are the Stealth PGS which use a gold conductor, so I wanted to see how close I could get with just some teflon tube and good RCA's (that were also sitting around unloved). Long story short, the PGS retained their throne without any question, but these are now in place of a $500 pair of interconnects that WERE dethroned. I'm sure any experienced cable builder will look at these and roll their eyes, but hey, it was my first effort and they sound quite good.
Capacitance acts as a high pass, inductance acts as a low pass. I don't think too much of either is good, but depending on what is being connect what would normally be considered an excess of either to be audibly good. You could correctly point out that indicates the equipment is flawed, but you have to work with what you have. Unless you are going to the bleeding edge of interconnects, it is usually a lot cheaper to correct with an interconnect or speaker cable then it is with replacing a component.
Case in point, my beloved Threshold CAS-1 does not have a Zobel in the output stage so it is sensitive to high capacitance interconnect cables, to the point of self destructing if you go too high. My solution is not to use high capacitance cables (although I could just add a Zobel). I like the amp too much, with all of its flaws, to switch amps.
Dave
On the Cable Asylum, unshielded interconnect are all the rage for everything except phono. I am going to give it a try, but first, I will solder up a cheap set to see if I can get away with it. Actually, it is not very expensive to use premium wire and RCA's if you DIY, so I plan to give it a try. I did hear a very noticeable difference when I switched from the NAD stainless steel jumpers on my NAD Integrated, to Audioquest silver wire jumpers, so I am open to the idea that cables can affect the sound.
Dave
The last thing I have to finish up is cabling.
What wire and cables did you DIY with?
I may start a new thread on vintage gear and upgrading with new cables.
I have not started yet, but I have bought rolls of cheap RatShack solid core cables which I will experiment with different geometrys. When I get something that sounds superior, I will substitute better cable and connectors. Neotech Teflon Insulation solid core hookup wire looks like a good deal when I am ready to go for better quality. 1877 RCA connectors look like a good deal for the build quality. I am not sure about spades yet. VH Audio has some nice wire and connectors but they are a little more expensive.
Dave
I used unshielded between my Rabco tonearm and phono stage then from the phono stage to the line stage as well. No noise.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
Interesting! What cartridge?
Dave
The Hubbell I had was hospital g1qrade. Not in the same league as audio grade outlets. I was in electronics most of my life. I worked for a dealer that sold new and used, repaired everything and sold everything from NAD, Rotel to CJ and Focal and Quad. I never heard a Rotel CDP I liked. Modding gear and tweaks can make any level of gear better.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
Edits: 07/19/16
I've been an enthusiast since 1953 when I built my first amps kit. But my real leg up came when I graduated from college and worked in the vibration testing industry. Really big amps (my biggest was 140 kVA), and lots of cool instrumentation to play with. And since it was all for the defense industry back then, we had very stringent calibration and NBS traceability to worry about. That business had a remarkable number of audio enthusiasts working in it. I eventually went to work for a manufacturer of the shakers, amps, and instrumentation. That was a real eye opener. They also let me take instruments home including a distortion analyzer. I left there in 1972 and moved out here to Ohio. Our labs were in tough shape, so one of my tasks was to build up the staff, the instrumentation, and a proper calibration capability. On my lunch hour I had my own bench in the instrument room and I'd repair people's hi-fi gear, make mods, or even scratch build a couple of amps. They weren't world class by any means; but I wanted to prove I could do it. As an engineering manager, I had access to instruments and would often take them home. No distortion analyzer; but some good acoustical meters and an RTA. After I retired, I no longer had access, of course; so I bought some of my own including an RTA. I still use them; but less frequently now, although the new Adcom gear will require them for a check out when they arrive.
Jerry
First of all, I concur with the "what's important" part.
OTOH, saying that Radio Shack cabling is fully equivalent to stuff like Odin just demonstrates lack of exposure to what is available.
Similarly, use of the highest performance power cords is not going to make a component great, but it can clearly offer an incremental improvement with overall clarity in my experience.
Naturally, one must balance such investments with the overall resolution of the system.
I tried two high end cables over the years. Long story short I keep coming back to the mid level RadioShack cables. That standard RCA gold plated red and black one for around $5.
My ultra $$ cables have been sitting in a closet (now a box) for a few years now. Heck I've even had surprising success with 16/18 gauge speaker wire and RadioShack RCA phono connectors. As comical as that sounds it seems to work for me.
I'm going by my ears now that I'm to poor to afford the hype
I tried two high end cables over the years...My ultra $$ cables have been sitting in a closet
Would you care to indicate which ones they were and details of that system? I purchased most of my cabling from dealers that allow returns following an audition in your system. When I worked at a shop in college, Julian would regularly loan gear to prospective buyers to ensure satisfaction.
I'm going by my ears now that I'm to poor to afford the hype
I've always let my ears guide the way. The application of theoretical physics has little to do with my enjoyment of music. :)
Mogambi sp?? and Kimber
Sorry, but Mogami cable does not begin to represent the highest level of what is available.
Which Kimber? They have a wide range of interconnects from $67 to $8000. As you might imagine, that's like throwing together a Chevy Astra with a Corvette ZR1.
I think part of the challenge is that there is no fast rule as to what constitutes high performance cabling. There are, however, a handful of dedicated cable companies that make their own very nice ones - as opposed to rebranding Belden, etc.
Actually if you do have any cable recommendations I would be interested.
Mainly I need one between my DAC and preamp and preamp to amp. Short runs of between 2 to 3 feet. I would also be into DIYing them
I always appreciated your choices in gear
Hello again Airtime, in this thread above I mentioned the interconnects I made from teflon tubing. I bought all of the parts from Michael Percy Audio.
I sure couldn't remember this, but I found the invoice:
Cardas GRMO connectors
23.5 ga Cardas 6N copper, teflon jacketed
6 ga teflon tubing
I like looking through his stuff. Really cool audiophile pieces and parts. What is your recipe for those cables
Duster at the Cable Asylum has made some good recommendations in all price ranges. I recommend that you do a search.
Dave
Did you end up trying out Chris' V twist ICs?
I had to smile about the conversation between Duster and you about shielding. Did you notice that the premier VH Labs cable is shielded? :)
"...has a double shield of foil and silver plated copper spaced AWAY from the signal conductors."
One reason why my Harmonic Tech power cords are pricey is that like the above, they use silver conductors for hot and neutral.
Not yet. To much other things happening and not all good. I will get there. I need to mock up some cheap cables to see if unshielded will work in my system.
Dave
I started making my own interconnects using Belden stock back in the late 70s. The Acoustat X had tube amps in the bases and required long runs which were difficult to find pre-made at the time. Initially, I used DIY Belden, then Audio Technica and eventually Esoteric Audio which used better connectors. I still have a short run of those today.
The office based in-house system poses a similar challenge where I use Belden 1505F and terminated the leads myself. You really can get decent cable for a modest amount. One of many areas where I agree with Jerry is the concept of "non-bright". I've found that all matter of untrapped RFI causes a false brightness that masks resolution. In order to really get noticeable improvements in that regard, I've found that you must step up the investment a bit. Kimber certainly makes such along with JPS Labs, DH Labs, Nordost, etc. Be prepared to spend about $400 for even 1-2M runs. Initially, they might sound "dark", but I've found that translates to "dead quiet". It is then when you start hearing more nuance.
On the other hand, I am primarily a speaker guy and have always centered a system around a great speaker. With your system, I would consider a change there if anywhere. The Zaphs appear to be well designed mini-monitors with a low crossover for better driver blending. As for me, however, I find tall line sources provide a more realistic presentation. Have you ever heard Maggies in your system? They offer a money-back guarantee on their entry level model . The only downside is they do need a couple of feet breathing room behind them. You can minimize that requirement in a small room using more toe-in.
I've found that everything in a system can make a difference. After a while, one noticeable difference here and one there starts to add up. I would put cables towards the end of the priority list, but continue to find that for the highest performance systems, they can make meaningful differences. The final systems of HP I heard at Sea Cliff used Nordost Odin throughout. I can't say that all of the phenomenal transparency - and I don't use that adjective lightly - was due to the cabling, but he was convinced they certainly contributed.
Well, as Isaid earlier, it has to make sense to me in light of the physics involved, and I'm sorry; but it just doesn't.
Jerry
Such requires a complete understanding of all the relevant variables. Many engineers begin with the wrong assumptions and/or believe they are omniscient.
Some, however, are open to understanding what their senses tell them. :)
One engineer's view on the "science" of power cords
I read the link you attached, and most of the posts in the thread it's in.
That first meter thought may have some relevance, as another post talks about listening to power supplies. In an amplifier, or even a simple emitter follower, the signal only serves to modulate the current from the power supply - so in fact, the power supply is in series with the load, and the output can be no better than the quality of the power supply.
So the next question is if a power cord can affect the DC output current from the power supply. Well that would depend on a lot of factors. If the component uses an IEC connector, does the new cord get a better contact than the old one. Much is made of soldering the wires to the connectors in the plugs; but there are a second set of prongs and sockets in the IEC connection. Is that what you hear? I know that the connections at the ends of the speaker cables do make a difference. I have posted on that several times. So, isn't the same thing true for the power cord? Does the break in that's reported result from changes at the end connections? Why isn't a soldered in line cord better?
Also, does the component under test have a bi-directional line filter? If the First Meter argument is true, they should be there to prevent both emitting and receiving noise. And what about the second meter - isn't that an antenna, too? And since all the components are plugged into the same line, I'd be more worried about conducted noise. I am actually, and those components without a line filter built in have ferrites internally on their power connections.
More questions than answers; but as I said, the physics have to make sense.
Jerry
Jerry,
A favorite rant of mine is get the Physics right. The Laws of Physics define the boundaries of the "playing field". Never, ever, forget that all of us are plagued by Emperor's New Clothes and Proud Pappa syndromes.
I detest IEC power inlets, as they are just another set of mechanical connections that can, and do, cause trouble. A properly strain relieved, "captive", cable is my strong preference.
Can a power cable make a difference? Some of the time, yes. Suppressing EMI/RFI pickup/transmission and adequate current handling capability definitely matter. However, doing so does not require the expenditure of very large sums.
Gee, silver sounded better than stainless steel. Shocking (NOT). Look at the difference in resistivity.
Eli D.
What about copper vs silver?
In relation to internal wiring, AC lines and speaker wires?
I have some silver signal cables that are associated with phono. Who's to say yay or nay? My SME V arm came with silver cabling and I was not about try something else.
You could, assuming connections were not an issue (they most definitely are), use aluminum for AC mains wire. Anybody who tells you it will sound bad is ignoring the fact that electricity is transported cross-country on aluminum cables, with steel cores. ;> )
I suspect that high purity copper is quite adequate for almost all amp duties.
Perhaps the most interesting use of silver wiring was during WW2. Copper was a strategic material and, for a time, in very short supply. Remember, the 1943 Lincoln cent was made of steel. The Manhattan Project (atom bomb) needed enormous amounts of wiring. They used silver (very big $) until copper became available.
Eli D.
More questions than answers; but as I said, the physics have to make sense.
Contemplating the issue is one thing, but maybe someday you'll have the good fortune of actually experiencing what music lovers and industry professionals have already discovered.
I was quite surprised when I first heard the difference in JWC's system about fifteen years ago when he started using Kimber Palladians. He let me borrow his three to hear what they could do in my system. There's simply more focus and low level resolution to be heard.
Ralf
Remember you and I had that conversation and we both concluded that the difference in the power cords would be in the shielding for RF and digital noise,provided we have adequate voltage,current,and a low resistance,delivered by the cord..Since I like my cord connections to be wrapped and soldered as opposed to slip-on where you risk micro arcing as with the IEC..What I ended up doing was,going to en electrical supply house and getting shielding to fit over 14ga cords,as well as 12ga and 10ga. I solder it to ground on the chassis side only so it acts as an antenna to take noise to ground.
There is also McMaster Carr that has those inductive clamps but I can never find them..They are supposed to be great filtering for noise to be trapped out and you clamp them to each side of the cord.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
Remember you and I had that conversation and we both concluded that the difference in the power cords would be in the shielding for RF and digital noise,provided we have adequate voltage,current,and a low resistance
You'll certainly have to quote that reference as I believe there's more to it.
There is also McMaster Carr that has those inductive clamps but I can never find them.
Some folks find that ferrite beads and clamps diminish sound quality in other ways.
I'll take a well designed aftermarket power cord any day.
Ferrite beads have to be used in the right place to be effective but it depends on type of circuit where they are effective.
I'll take a well designed aftermarket power cord any day.
You can make your own that work just as well.I know because we've done it.
Now make your own Ralf..LOL
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
You can make your own that work just as well.I know because we've done it.Yes and no. If you view my profile, you'll find that I use a mix of DIY and commercial power cords. The better DIY cords are based upon Belden 83803 . They're better than stock but don't touch the Harmonic Tech ones used with the power amps. Tell us about yours and to what you've compared it. Who's we? :)
As for Steve's article, there is precious little there I find that agrees with my experience. Who uses "stranded rubber" cords? Shielding bad? Who cares about RFI anyway , right?
He is, however, welcome to his opinion. Mine follows that of companies like ARC (Sain Line) and VTL (Shunyata) who use shielded aftermarket products in their own evaluation systems.
Edits: 07/21/16
I agree and that's why I had posted it..When i don't use shielded cable,my systems are susceptible to hum depending on where used.I posted that to show that everyone has an opinion and while he does mention some good things in the article,some of it is open to conjecture.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
When i don't use shielded cable,my systems are susceptible to hum depending on where used
While I don't suffer hum issues, I find shielding delivers a lower noise floor that allows more transparency.
My power conditioning strategy begins, however, with two dedicated 20A lines.
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