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Hello,
I am pretty much giving up hope to find a Cit II to purchase and experience. Are there any suggestions as to a modern or any other equivalent?
I am looking at Bob Latino's ST-120 kits. I enjoy kit building and refurbing gear.
Thanks for any suggestions.
Follow Ups:
I really appreciate all the response and replies.
I never considered the Citation V. I have always heard about the Citation II.Yes, my speakers are fairly efficient, I tend to prefer high efficient speakers. My last speakers were 604's.
I have no issues of finding Citation II that would need a total rebuild, as long as the xfmrs are not shot.
I have a lead on a set of Cit II's, but the owner doesn't want to budge, but he tends to flip gear regularly, so he has stated I would be on top on the list for first dibs on one of them. Fingers crossed there!
I also like building kits, I just finished the Elekit TU-8200DX, and I am about to start buying some tubes to roll with it.
Those Latino kits look really good to me as well, I will consider them. I know they are not Citation II replacements, but they seem to be really well received and enjoyed.
Thanks again everyone.
Edit: I also failed to mention that I have a Eico HF81 that I am about to refurb/recap and bring back up in the meantime.
Edits: 02/24/16
What do you think of a Citation V, which seems to me to be a better match for your Altec 19s, if those are the speakers you are planning on using?
If so there is one on eBay for $1300.
My Citation II, a beauty with all Jim Mcshane's mods, is a wonderful match with my rebuilt AR-5s, which are relatively low sensitivity. However, the Cit II with my higher sensitivity Audio Note ANE/Spes is dull sounding - very boring.
Look below and see what Jim has to say about speaker matching with Cit II and V.
That is interesting and good to know. I have seen it with higher powered transistor amps that they did not work well with high efficiency speakers, but I was not aware that it happened with tube amps too. That is probably because my experience with high powered tube amps is very limited (CJ MV75 driving Vandersteens). Have you tired triode wiring the Citation?
Dave
No, I have not. It sounds so good right now I'm not motivated to change it. Eventually I probably will, but I suspect the AR-5s like the extra power. Cheers
Another Vintage amp with killer iron that doesn't get a lot of mention around here is the Fisher 55a.
I had a chance to give these a listen about a year ago driving a pair of big Focal's and the sound was near perfect.
I lifted the pics off of the web.
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
That would give the first clue to if you are even able to afford an amp AND the rebuild. Buy new or kit?
charles
I bought my un-rebuilt hulk for not much less than the current $1,000 bid, and this one has been rebuilt.
Danger Will Robinson - those solder joints look really bad - mediocre work at best. Better to find an original and do the work yourself and not accept work done of unknown origin. $2000
For work done - I call BS on that!
He can rebuild that nicely with one of McShane's kits..What really angers me when I see that is the fact that they took out the original 7 watt and 10 watt and 5 watt power resistors which are fabulous and they even had the venting holes on each end..This amp is very rebuildable and Jim's kits are straight forward.
A friend you get for nothing,an enemy has to be bought
D70 or D76 ? Many consider these amps among the better "modern" tube amps, and definately competitive with the best of the golden age
my memory is that their reputation is that they went through tubes in amatter of months.
Not true, at least for the D70 MkII. I have had one since about 1986, and it has been very good. Replaced output tubes a few times, the rest only once, even though they were still working fine. Not bad at all in 30 years.
Marty is right.
The closest you are going to some to the Citation 2 for a modern amp would be the Mc275 MK5 and MK6..Like the Citation 2 the Mc275 is a wide bandwidth amp with very low distortion and nested loop feedback.
A freint bekamt men umzist; a soineh muz men zikh koifen.
A friend you get for nothing,an enemy has to be bought
nt
I have not heard the new MC275, but I was in the business when the original and the Citation were current. In my opinion, the Mac was superior. I preferred the MC240 to the Deuce driving KLH Nines and the more forgiving Bozak Symphonies. I thought McIntosh had better circuit designs and a more robust power supply.
The Mac I most favored for its musical qualities was the MC225.
I have never understood the enthusiasm for the Citation line, but acknowledge that audio is subjective, and -- as a dealer -- that the HKs could be bought at discounts, while the Macs were not.
I thought McIntosh had better circuit designs and a more robust power supply.
I own several citation 2s and an Mc275 and a pair of Mc240s and several mc60s. If you go back in time,your statement would be correct because Mac was generous with filtering as much as they could be for physical size restraints.
Fast forward to about 2002 on and there is a gentleman named Jim McShane that reinvented a much more robust power supply for Mc240,Mc75s,and Mc225 and the Cit 2 and Cit 5 amps.Now these amps have much more reserve and are more quiet with a better selection of power-supply,signal components,and ground schemes that take all these amps to level unheard of in the 1960s.
The Macs run closer to class B and draw much less at idle where the Deuce runs in class A at idle. I run a pair of Citation 2s in mono driving a pair of Martin Logan CLXs from 55hz on up and the subs of course handle the bottom end below 55hz..
Anyway,I find a lot of sonic similarities with the Macs and the Citations because they both lean on correctness in their sonic patterns but arrive at it in a different way..
A freint bekamt men umzist; a soineh muz men zikh koifen.
A friend you get for nothing,an enemy has to be bought
picked one up a while back and looking to rebuild it, how does the V compare to the Deuce?
I should point out that there a a number of people that prefer the Cit V to the Cit II. I personally think the V has better imaging which when paired with the outstanding tone makes it a very formidable amp. Until you get a chance to hear one and compare it with a Deuce you won't know how hard a choice it is to make - especially with more efficient speakers.
By ALL means get on that project!
contact you for all the restoration goodies!
Cit. 2 is better than the Cit. 5, which is not surprising, give the price differential. Still, the Cit. 5 is a superior implementation of Mullard style circuitry and worthy of considerable respect. Don't sneer at the Deuce's "little brother".
Eli D.
I do not agree the Citation 2 is better than the Citation 5. I have
two Citation 2's and one Citation 5. The five is much more "enjoyable"
on the ears.
Regards to all,
John
John
It's like Eli said,it depends what it's paired with..When the Deuce and the Mc275 came out,there fundamental purpose was one that could drive difficult loads like the KLH9s or Quad ESL63s.Synergy comes into play because the amps a very correct in their sonic nature as are the aforementioned speakers.On speakers that are more efficient and are a more stable impedance,the Citation 5 would probably do things more to your liking.
A friend you get for nothing,an enemy has to be bought
Speaker mating has much to do with where any particular preference lies.Over all, the "Deuce" is the better/more capable performer. However, the "Five" is 1 of the better "Golden Age" amps to pick for an acquisition/refurbishment project.
Eli D.
Edits: 02/15/16
restoration project!
Hi,
I, like others think there are several amps currently produced that you might be happy to own and use, but I suspect that after the "new car smell" wears off you may have a nagging thought of what am I missing because I didn't get the Citation II. Jim McShane has done all the hard work of evaluating and selecting components plus a few tweaks to ensure the Citation II amplifier circuits and output transformers perform to the max. Any amp that is going to get you in the same ball park sound wise with a Citation II is going to cost more than a rebuilt Citation. If you get the Citation and decide its "wire with gain" amplification is not for you, it will return most or all of your investment if you sell it.
In the context of a modern, high performance four output tube amp of medium power you would be hard pressed to better the Audio Research REF75 SE design. It feeds the KT150 outputs with a massive 500 joule power supply for effortless dynamics and transparency.
REF75
Two M-125 Latinos. No substitute for head room. Also not running tubes at or near full out "can" extend tube life but not always. How user treat tubes is important but sometimes they just go.ET
Edits: 02/14/16 02/14/16
The Chinese VAS Citation two monoblocks are supposed to use the Citation 2 circuitry.
They are quite different. Not only the transformers, but the new amp uses a 5AR4 instead of the SS rectifier in the original. The new amp is monobloc construction. The new amp has 10 watts less RMS power and less bandwidth. It also has a lower input impedance and a higher input sensitivity by a factor of over 3. They use different front tend tubes. And there's more...
The only thing common to both amps is part of the name. They don't share circuitry at all other than both being push-pull and using octal power tubes.
It is BY NO MEANS a modern equivalent to a REAL Citation II.
Thanks. I slightly know an importer of them and shouldn't have believed him.
They made a modern copy of the original Citation 1 preamp and it's a nice preamp but for five grand,it should be.They used the same tube complement as the original and circuitry but it's made in China and if it weren't for the stellar reputation of the original,that price would be difficult to fetch.
A freint bekamt men umzist; a soineh muz men zikh koifen.
A friend you get for nothing,an enemy has to be bought
At least they kept the tone control part of the circuit.
Without the very wide bandwidth Freed O/P "iron", Stu Hegeman's all pentode small signal circuitry can't "do its thing". A extremely necessary part of whole "Deuce" setup is missing. The defect is lethal .
Eli D.
The Cit.ii output iron is around 3k2 a-a. If you're going to build an amp to the Deuce's power output, with its B+ level, you're going to need comparable loading. When John Atwood tested output Iron, the Deuce and the W6m 16439 were the top of the heap in terms of bandwidth and power handling( across that bandwidth). The Dynaco Mk VI was nowhere near, even though it was lower in a-a loading. The MC amps are even lower in effective a-a load, but with their local FB thanks to evenly divided plate and cathode loading, are remarkably wide bandwidth considering their less complex interleave geometry.
If you're going to build an amp of that power/bandwidth, you're going to need an exceptional output trans. There is no way around it. IOW, there are no modern equivalents.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
Thanks for sharing that.
In your experience; Are there any modern ttransformers that compare to the Citation II and Heathkit W-6?
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
I guess transformer design and build reached its zenith 50 years ago.
Why?
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
IF that's the (a) reason for shortcomings in new amps it doesn't make sense.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
If the vaunted transformers of the McIntosh Mc60, Heathkit W6, Harman Kardon Citation II, and a few others are as good as everyone says they are (I believe they are); Then why the hell hasn't someone else been able to build a equivalent, or even better output transformer in the past 50 years?
As I stated in a earlier post, everything else in life has improved.
I'm trying to create a shit storm, but I would like to know the reason(s) for this.
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
There are good, no excellent transformers out there. The myth of the "old" iron is just that - a myth.
Magnaquest and Hammand come to mind. Or Bob Latino who offers the ST-70 and ST-120 uses custom made BETTER transformers than the original dynacos.
The only reason you are not seeing good transformers in commercial/new offerings is price savings. And I really should also mention PS designs have improved. Off loading the heavy load placed on some trannies. But basically companies are trying to save a buck. Unfortunately good audio does require a pricey price tag.
Eli D.
Honestly don't know if the Chinese tried to copy the transformers too. I have heard the amps driving KEF Blades at Harry Weisfeld's sounding awfully good.
Why have you given up on a Citation II?
There are plenty around. I had one for sale on another site and did not get the kind of interest I was looking for so here it sits.
There are plenty about. But most often, you will have to refurbish them adding considerably to the cost if you cannot do the work on your own. If push pull is your thing they are hard to beat for the investment vs. new. when refurbished.
Good luck!
One thing I should add about the Latino ST-70/120. And this IS important.
It is a fully tweaked modded out amp. Open the box, assemble it and sit back and listen for 20 or so years. NO tweaking needed. It's already done!
Also this is NOT your Grand Dads Dynaco. It does not sound or perform like a stock or even upgraded Dynaco.
It's one of the great ones.
If you have the cash, time and can find a Citation in the condition you want then go for it. I've been fooling around with stereos for years and this is about as good as an amp can get.
With the money you save you can tube roll until your hearts content.
charles
The ST-70 is not a Citation II. I have two ST-70's, one running KT-88's with a beefed up power supply and another running KT-77's. Both have VTA upgrade boards and have been completely rebuilt. They are very nice sounding amps but they are not on the same level as my rebuilt Deuce or rebuilt McIntosh MC225.
While I'm sure that the ST120 is good and you'd enjoy making/listening to it, the Citation II is one of if not the best of all time. It's iron is fantastic as is it's driver stage and probably unequaled unless you spent a lot for something custom. Bob Carver makes a few amps that supposedly are inspired by it but they cost a boat load.
If you go with the ST120 i'd use diodes etc in place of the tube recifier. One GZ34 doesn't seem enough to do the amp justice. A single one is already taxed in a ST70.
I built Bob's ST-70. Go for the 120. You WILL be happy!!!!!
Bob's a wonderful guy. Never short on helping. Not that you really need it. But he is there! The parts are top notch quality. And he did not take any short cuts or cost cut. A real gem of an amp.
If he offers the tubes he does give you a great set. But do ask his opinion on his favorites. He will be honest. And usually very right. If he offers you the Slyvania 12AU7's GRAB THEM!!! The best 12au7 I've ever heard!!!!
It was fun to build and I never once was lost or wondering - "what does he mean by this?"
The "iron" makes the amp! Plitron has some expensive toroids that come, in specs., close. One model has the bandwidth, but comes up a bit short in power handling, while a 2nd model has the parameters reversed. :> (
The stuff Freed wound for the "Deuce" is truly special. It's a prime contender for the best ever accolade.
While not a "Deuce", you could do far worse than a well optimized Williamson setup, that uses really good O/P "iron" wound by 1 of today's "usual suspects". Be prepared for a MAJOR case of sticker shock.
Eli D.
Talking of irons, I had to replace the original PT of my HK Cit.II and bought a Hammond 378CX. Of course it means a different power supply but the results are good (Please don't ask the schematics!, it's been many years ago).
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