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In Reply to: RE: Tube sound - how much is due to the caps? posted by Bold Eagle on December 13, 2015 at 06:58:28
with electrolytics being the worst, film and PIO types in the middle and teflon being the best. The latest products from companies like Atma Sphere, Audio Research, Conrad-Johnson, VTL, etc all use more "exotic" types that provide exceptional resolution and top end extension. VTL offers an upgrade path for my older amplifiers using superior Mundorf silver-oil caps used by current product. Unfortunately, I need sixteen of them and they run about $45 each. At least that is better than replacing them with V-Cap copper foil and fluoropolymer films for $280 each. :)I would agree that 'lytics in the signal path create a sound that is dark and opaque - just like crappy old tube gear.
BTW, I just noticed an earlier thread where you might have referenced my experiences with modding New Advents as "E-Tech". If so, then I would like to clarify a couple of points:
1. Yes, I found the mix of NP electrolytics better in terms of tonal balance than all film. All film was too bright.
2. Ideally, one would have added the necessary resistance to keep the ESR constant to prevent the vast tonal change.
3. Never was the all film result "edgy" - just too darn bright.
4. You won't find any competent speaker designer today who uses electrolytics. They simply design the circuit from the outset to work with the more linear capsAnd, my passion is electrostatic speakers, hence the moniker. :)
Edits: 12/13/15Follow Ups:
Yes, my bad! We've exchanged posts and e mails for years. Why the lecture?
Jerry
just responding to your question.
You are throwing out a generalized statement that I think is just plain out dated - sorry.
After years of tweaking with capacitors in both my "trash" and "good" gear, I've over come some preconceived prejudices and misconceptions that have simply been perpetuated for years.
And that is that a given capacitor will work (sound) different, in different circuit designs. Sometimes a film does work and sometimes a electrolytic works better.
I first realized this when I was tweaking the CRAP out of a Marantz 3600 preamp. I tried like hell to stuff hundreds of dollors in film caps into that thing. But in the end it truly was a ""GOOD"" electrolytic that was needed.
I also think the urban myth has been perpetuated by that fact that older electrolytics DID sound like crap! But newer generation lytics are actually VERY nice sounding. I seem to lean towards the Nichicons. Clean, well balanced and Cheap (like 45 cents a cap - how could you go wrong?)
Sorry
charlie
You are throwing out a generalized statement that I think is just plain out dated - sorry.
Look for the absence of such in the signal path of virtually any high end gear made today - sorry. Why don't you ask those engineers why they use more linear caps?
I first realized this when I was tweaking the CRAP out of a Marantz 3600 preamp. I tried like hell to stuff hundreds of dollors in film caps into that thing.
Why bother?
Yeah, I did realize that quite quickly about the 3600.
Edits: 12/14/15
I have one stereo (new purchase and not the Conrad Johnson) that uses Elna Silmic II and Elna Cerafine caps. Excellent TOTL rated caps. But truth be told the amp section sounds like CRAP! The preamp section sounds warm and nice but not the end line on detail. I think this is a situation where it DOES need a different and perhaps a cheaper cap.
Some transistor gear is worth rebuilding, but it is not possible (room) or practical (cost versus benefit) to use anything but electrolytics. For those pieces, I am glad that high quality electrolytics are available. Also, that is how the gear was voiced. I don't have the time or the desire to redesign or revoice everything.
However, if I were designing from the ground up, I'd want film.
Dave
But truth be told the amp section sounds like CRAP!
There's a lot more to determining the sound of a component than its caps. If you refer to the Marantz integrated, compare its innards to say the PM11S3. Quite a difference I should say. Once is designed to a specific price point using op amps in lieu of discrete devices.
I think this is a situation where it DOES need a different and perhaps a cheaper cap.
And further reduce linearity? I suspect the underlying issue(s) lie elsewhere.
note what the best units employed.
Solid State - Mark Levinson JC-2
Tube - Audio Research SP-3a
Largely film and polystyrene.
BE doesn't specifically mention cap brand at the point he describes the "edgy" sound but he later does mention the Solen brand. If he was using the common black and grey MKP type, they do indeed have a reputation for a fizzy/tizzy or "edgy" character. Although technically pretty decent, they're probably best suited for non-signal apps such as PS input caps and similar. If he was using something else....
You're right on. They were the black and gray ones. Now replaced by Clarity PX or Jantzen CrossCaps. Both of which lack that false brightness.
Jerry
Just not my experience.
Lower treble just got really "fat" and turned the Advent into an L100 Century - yuck!
I found that edginess in the black and gray Solens as well when you used as couplers where DC was present.I didn't hear it so much in speaker crossovers.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
Interesting observation. I've heard the Solen fizz more in xovers but its definitely present whenever signal is present. I now use the Solens only for PS work. For low cost film caps for xovers I've transitioned to the black and yellow Dayton/Bennic MPT type. OTOH, I could just be fooling myself too. In matters of taste, there can be no dispute.
Power supplies are where I use the black Solens as well. The black Solens have that slight fizz on some values but it does work itself out overtime,
Martin Logan uses the large Solens in the crossover of the Statements but those are the larger values.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public
H. L. Mencken
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