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Seems like every time a posting about signal path capacitors comes up electrolytic capacitors are universally condemned!
However, this is the fourth or fifth project that I've tinkered with, trying a variety of capacitors and every time I keep coming back to the electrolytics. Granted I am usually upgrading the quality of THAT cap. But every time the polar cap does sound better.
I am using audio grade Nichicon KT, KW,FW ,FG series caps. And a variety of WIMA and Clarity, Solan film caps.
Follow Ups:
Could I offer a humble suggestion? There is a groundbreaking article that dates back to the early 80s that was written by Walt Jung and Dick Marsh called "Picking Capacitors". It was in Audio magazine's February and March issues. You can find the article at the link below.
If you haven't read it you owe it to yourself to do so.
Jim,
Many thanks for that link. I just scanned through it (that took almost an hour), and it's a treasure trove. Interestingly, at the very end, it answers the question I posted in the next topic I posted.
It also seems I'm doing the right things.
Jerry
When that article first came out it was a revelation to me. I had never seen anything like it in print prior to that time. Changed my way of thinking about capacitors.
I have no problem with Nichicon Muse for DC blocking in the signal path.
They have been called 'nothing special' which to me says they don't attract attention to themselves. Components that disappear are the best.
-reub
First off, it's awesome that you're going with what you liked more even though it's against popular consensus. I've learned the hard way to do the same. My hunch is that the type of capacitor probably doesn't matter as much as one can be led to believe. I'm sure it effects things, just not as much as one sounds like crap and the other type is wonderful. We really need some blind testing. Maybe there is some and i'm unaware of it.One thing I've noticed in this hobby that if there's a difference most will interpret it to be a night and day difference instead of a minor one the vast majority of the time. Maybe it's just human nature.
BTW, what are you working on?
Edits: 12/12/15 12/12/15
Airtime, I sent you a private message on my experimental results.
For the rest of you, here's what I did. I have two NAD integrated amps, a C350 and a C320BEE. In stock form they don't sound quite the same. The C350 has more solid low bass with noticeable "slam"; but is rather clinical sounding and slightly edgy on the top end. The C320BEE has a noticeably less solid bass line; but has smooth mids and highs and a much wider soundstage. In comparing the designs, the circuit topology is nearly identical; but there are differences in the much huskier power supply in the C350, accounting for the better bass; and the C320BEE uses 0.1 uF film bypass capacitors on all the electrolytic coupling caps in the signal path in the preamp and power amp.
Just today, I added 0.1 uF polypropylene film bypass caps to all the electrolytic coupling caps in the C350. It is absolutely transformed!!! The clinical sound has been replaced by some added warmth, non-bright mids and highs, a wide soundstage, and a very natural character. The bass is unaffected and is still solid with a good sense of slam. This easily moves the C350 past the C320BEE, and puts it very close to my Rotel gear, although I have not had time to compare them.
I'd like to add some comments about film Vs electrolytic caps. Non-polar electrolytics are commonly used in speaker crossovers. My experience with Advents (and also E-Tech's) is that changing the electrolytics to polypropylene film caps makes the highs too bright and edgy. What E-tech and I both found was bypassing an electrolytic with a small film cap gave a more open sound and eliminated some veiling without getting too bright sounding. JBL started doing this on their pro line speakers around 1980, using 0.068 uF film caps. Film caps might be "better" in terms of technical properties; but not necessarily in terms of sound quality - especially as replacements in an existing design.
In one case, I modified a pair of small Polk speakers using a new crossover designed by Dennis Murphy. He used non-polar electrolytics in the original design, and when I built them, I used Solen film caps. When the two systems were measured, mine had over 4 dB more output in the tweeter at 20 kHz.
In electronics, polarized electrolytics are used because of cost and the fact they are far smaller. Can you imagine what the 40,000 uF in my C350's power supply would look like if film caps were used? Nevermind the cost. However, film bypass caps are frequently found in power supplies; but you need something larger than 0.1 uF. As Airtime has pointed out, different grades of electrolytics can sound different.
Jerry
Jerry, What .1uf did you use across the electrolytic that you liked? Thank, Tweaker
~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
Personal taste? I have used some polyester (Mylar) caps; but I prefer polypro for new builds, although they don't all sound the same, and I don't care for Solen. So, what do you have against polypro? I have no experience using pio.
Taste? Yes Sir, I would say so... I do not like the 'brightness' of a lot polypropylene in several positions, having said that... when I mention ANY capacitor am not talking about metallized... always foil. Mixing different types lends a better sound to my ears and I am not above mixing types together to arrive at the value I need in that position.
Several speaker designers {Phil Jones comes to mind} hear what I hear when using foil polyester over polypropylene.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
Upfront, my knowledge of electronics is minimal.
I've read multiple times the recommendation to replace old electrolytics. Apparently as they age and deteriorate they can change value. But this advice seems to say just replace them with good quality modern electrolytics of the stated value. So are some suggesting replacement with non-electrolytics?
"You can't know what the "best" is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn't any such thing." HP
Sometimes, electros can be replaced with film caps for very good or better results. However, as Bold Eagle pointed out, the advantage of technical merit may not always be the sonic advantage.
Today's available replacement electrolytics are definitely better than in past vintages; especially for signal coupling and bypass duties. Anyone who has tried the Elna Silmic II has raved about them favorably. The only caveats with them are to buy genuine units from trusted vendors and to expect a bit more warmth or sweetness compared to the Nichicon or Matsushita(Panasonic) electros listed as "audiophile " or "audio grade" replacements. Another warning is that large cap values can be large in size.
Much has been written online about sonic advantages and comparisons of the new breed of electro replacements available today. Google search Elna Silmic or Nichicon FG or KZ for comparison opinions. The current consensus seems to be: Elna Silmic II for most tubelike, lush and 3D; Elna Cerafine for HF openness and LF articulation but forward with crisp mids, smooth but not lush; Panasonic FC for dry sound or neutral but 2D and not 3D; Nichicon FG (Muse) or KZ series for neutrality and clean sound; least colored and more 3D than Panasonics. Nichicon ES have even more 3D then the KZ series...Opinions are just that; certainly beware but recognize that some of these posts were done by folks looking for the finest sound for their vintage ss units. Nobody had anything bad to say about the Elna Silmic or Silmic II. Mouser and Digi-Key as well as Nebraska Surplus tend to have many values of many types on hand reasonably...
When it comes to input caps or coupling caps that are of low values (under 20 uf), I always prefer a film cap if size permits. When replacing caps or trying different caps, remember that they do require some break-in time to sound their best; time passing musical signals through them. Make any sound quality judgement after a few hours of music has passed through the new caps.
That is very good info IT so much appreciated.My specific project is the replacement of all electrolytics in a Technics SP-10 Mk 2 turntable. Someone suggested Nichicon and I believe they are readily available from Mouser and Digi-Key. So sonics are not an issue as in an older amp, preamp, tuner, etc. Which series would you suggest for this application or won't it matter so long as I match values?
"You can't know what the "best" is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn't any such thing." HP
Edits: 12/13/15
Thank You for the kind words ! No worries about your SP-10 resto...Simply get the lowest priced correct cap value stuff u can; from a trusted vendor of course.... Hopefully your speed issues will be gone and the SP-10 can spin for many more decades...I only wish my SP-15 were as easy to fix...Best Regards...
I will also take your advice for my Revox turntable. Since none of these capacitors pass a signal, it makes sense.
Dave
Great capacitor review without the Bull.
nt
~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
Electrolytic caps must be polarized for proper operation. If that condition can be met under all operating conditions, electrolytics can be pretty good. Unfortunately, some equipment misapplies electrolytics such that they aren't sufficiemtly polarized or are subjected to reverse polarity under certain conditions. If this is the situation, a film cap is probably the best choice if space permits. NP electrolytics are a compromise and should be avoided if at all possible.
Edits: 12/12/15
Try connecting two in series, back to back (must be 2X the capacity). Then apply a small DC bias voltage through a high value resistor to the center where the two positive terminals are connected together.
High end recording consoles have been doing this for years.
Yes, they do! And it works at first...
I was brought in to work on George Clinton's Neve VRP a couple years after dragging it out of storage and crudely setting it up for them. It is a 72 channel board. Channel cards kept dying and getting shuffled off to the high numbered channels in order to keep the first 24-32 in good working order.
I pulled out a channel card and started removing electrolytics and testing them. 20% of the ones I tested were measurably leaky. Problem - there were over 200 per channel card. So to fix his console I would have had to replace 15,000 capacitors!! Needless to say that never found its way into a budget.
So, yknow, be careful using 'lytics in places like that. It makes the device not so easy to repair when the numbers get that ridiculous.
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