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In Reply to: RE: 'Do field coil speakers sound good........ posted by Michael Samra on February 24, 2015 at 20:35:47
Michael the more I read your post the more errors I find and I
feel the whole post is in some ways more detrimental than beneficial
even if you do have some true facts in there.If you have actually worked behind the closed doors of any speaker company
and have any first hand knowledge of marketing and engineering stories that can legally be released to the public I want to hear about but I think some the info you put in the post is just parroting somewhat true info and beaten to death legend stories mixed with marketing crap companies have fed us for years. Sorry if I am a little confrontational here but Michael what you are saying is just harmful information and utterly false and I can prove it:Michael's post states:
"To be able to continue production of the speaker systems in their catalogs, the ferrite bass drivers had to be the exact sonic equivalents of the Alnico drivers they replaced."
So company lit says ferrites are exact sonic equivalent as alnico, huh? I urge all to try the simple test I outline below.
If you ever have an alnico and ceramic woofer, mid, tweeter driver that have the same factory model designation and no cones or diaphragms in the drivers it is a really quick and easy eye opener.1. Carefully take a smallish screwdriver or other metal object with a grip
and lay it horizontally on the ceramic driver. Move it around so you can feel the shape of the magnetic field that is present all around the gap.2.Now carefully take the same screwdriver, etc and repeat on the alnico driver. Even if the alnico is discharged a little that field is going to feel quite different and way more tight and focused than the cermic model with the same model designation.
You say, but....the company assured me the drivers were the same!!! How come these fields feel so different? That radically different field shape and density couldn't possibly have an effect on the sound? right?!
This pretty much is black and white science here and not my subjective opinion in any way, just a cold hard fact easily verifiable.
Edits: 02/25/15 02/25/15 02/25/15Follow Ups:
I didnt have time to check the thread in a few days. But am catching up now.
IMO Mike was simply trying to add further takes on the matter which other credible folks have wrote. Nothing wrong with that. I wish it happened more often.
Approaching this as a right or wrong / good or bad stance is often futile in such a subjective matter. Im not trying to say either is head and shoulders over the other. I like Mike are simply saying theres good and bad examples on both sides. Quite often this is case with anything in life.
Personally I also like to the think the "semi" free market will tell a tail over time. No reason to think if the great strengths of Alnico continue to reveal themselves, we may well see more of them on the market for us enthusiasts and then some.... who knows...
Again, your knowledge and input is wonderful IMO. I simply think when folks get overly heated and polar in a good natured exchange of ideas it often proves to be unproductive. Plenty of examples of this in all our fine forums. I dont mind heated to some extent. We are often overly passionate. Myself included. I just dont see Mike as posting anything overly bias or ill willed... Ill go as far as saying Mike is one of the best natured folks in this hobby who tries to help others more than most Ive seen.
All the best.
And I did shoot you a couple emails and fixed mine. Happy to send you more info and pics of the horns if you like.
2ch, thanks for pointing out what has happened and now I see the cause of the confusion. Now everyone can laugh at my story below but if happened to me I will bet there others may have experienced confusion as well.
I admit I was a little churned up because I really thought Michael was mindlessly paraphrasing the real article/post not realizing it was the exact article. (Had not read article/post in a few years so I did not realize what was going on at first)
1. Michael, your posting text just ran in to the text of another article/post titled "The Great Alnico/Ferrite Debate" with no quotes and no citation of where the text came from. Most people are not going to catch that.
2.Please, Michael and everybody else do not forget to use "quotes" around text that is not yours or no productive debate is possible. Also citations help greatly because there was also an important follow up to that post where Greg Timbers states plainly and scientifically states why ceramic is a lousy magnet material which you won't find on Don's "Lansing Heritage" post.
3.Yes I was a little bone headed not realizing Michael was not Don and I remember at the bottom of Michaels post thinking hmm ...Michael Samra is a really odd handle to use as a forum name. Maybe Michael Samra was an infamous character from a novel or something? And why would he use his real name in the post as Don McRitchie. Ok you can laugh at me for being such a goof ball but I just hope that brings to everyone's attention the
importance of quotes and citations.
Well said! You can't tell someone that they are not enjoying music through their system, even if you wouldn't like it. When I sold audio equipment, I found that different people had different cues that would tell them that the sound was real. I have yet to hear a speaker that does everything right. If I could figure out what the persons cues were and I could find a speaker in their price range, I got the sale. Most salesman sold what thy liked. I managed to do considerable better with my method.
Dave
1.Psychology-Crazy Dave makes a good point that there is no perfect speaker and we do have to pick our poison when choosing any audio component. This is where psychology comes in. A person that likes death metal may very well LOVE the ceramic magnet sound and think that alnico is too pretty sounding. Sales is actually kind of easy if realize that we have TWO ears and ONE mouth. So first you listen to the customer and when they are done talking, you say how many of those would you like and in what color? Although it is my belief that alnico comes the closest to reproducing the most realistic sound than any other permanent magnet so far, some people don't like reality....who am I to argue with them?
2.Science unfortunately is not something the average user gets to do unless they have the time, knowledge and/or money to run tests and research on their own. So most of us are left to rely on the science given to use in white papers and sales lit from a company. Only when we do our own tests can we read what was left out between the lines.
3.Business- Unfortunately for the the music and sound industries so many industry leaders have given us the more profitable choice and the science of the better choice is downplayed to the detriment of the enjoyment of music lovers everywhere.
At one point I even pondered the idea that musical and hifi equipment manufacturers should all be required to be non profit and maybe then we all could have gear that no compromises for greed and be affordable to all as well? I will probably get flamed for this thought and given a one way ticket to see how well Russia is doing with that concept but hey, I am trying to help the gear junkies out there with audio nervosa, I feel your pain as I was one of you at one time.
Even in the heyday of audio, I doubt I would have sold many alnico speakers, even if I had then to sell. The majority of what we sold were entry level or one step above entry level. Cost is a very important factor. The price of alnico drivers would have kept them on the fringe then, as it is now.
TAD, JBL, and Fostex have modern alnico drivers, but I doubt that they are keeping those companies afloat. The market is small, perfectionists are few, and even those don't agree.
Dave
Yes I think that even though the amount of alnico drivers sold even by the big boys in speaker manufacturing is probably very small, the psychology behind offering exotic drivers definitely works in a company's benefit.
C'mon how many out there can say they didn't wonder about the crazy priced alnico models when they were buying an entry level driver? Say another company had an equally as good entry level model but offered nothing exotic, would you still think it as good as the company that offers exotic drivers? There is something in the back of your head probably saying, well the company that offers really expensive alnico drivers must know what a decent driver should aspire to and the company with just an entry level driver, well what is their standard of reference other cheap drivers???
Psychology for sure in offering pricey alnico drivers and in the end good for their business for the cheaper nod as good sounding non alnico drivers.
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