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In Reply to: RE: I don't know if you guys remember or not a few years ago I had gone on a buying binge of woofers and posted by Audio Mind on February 22, 2015 at 08:22:20
In complete sincerity I ask this. Not at all trying to be argumentative.
Im a big believer in the free market system. Disclaimer being, when it truly is a free system. A gov / political debate for elsewhere... :)
I really do believe you on your stance on the matter. In your view, taste, experience this view came to be. Ive no reason to doubt you.
I just have to wonder, that being the case, with so many passionate folk in this hobby. Many of which with bottom less bank accounts. One would think there would be more options out there for folks to buy new alnico drivers. In the guitar scene, which your also clearly well versed on. Theres many new ones available. And many are not pie in the sky prices. Eminence offer many around the $250 or less mark. This would lead me to think the materials are not out of reach or overly expensive. Clearly market demand would rise over time if the virtues were proven. Seems a win win for music lovers if it came to be.
Now I know there are a few one off, boutique makers out there that do offer alnico drivers. Again I cant help but wonder why more dont given your view of their superiority.
BTW
"
Another phenomena might be that people get used to low quality goods. A crazy example I was told years ago was when a high end grocery store was donating expensive food to low income or let's say basically starving people. Now these people that are used to cheap processed food preferred the cheaper, processed food over the good stuff every time, even if they were hungry!...that's pretty crazy stuff. "
This bothers me FAR more than anything audio related could. Again branches off to my remark of free market. We got far bigger issues than folks not getting 100% out of their rig. Another topic for another forum.
I really hope to read your response to my response to you. Again think your a very bright guy with allot of experience. Tell us more.
Follow Ups:
Yes, I wonder the same things, there are so many bright people and limitless bank accounts in high end audio AND the fact you mention that alnico guitar speakers have already made a comeback a few years ago.
I know, I know, I know....these questions do sometimes keep me up at night the past few years! I am not a genius, just a clever guy with a lot of experience and I admit I am at a loss on the "whys" of human psychology or the cost and difficulty of manufacturing alnico drivers. Cobalt is the ingredient that causes the problem in the mix with availability and price.
There are a few (very few) speaker makers out there using alnico in new designs in high end audio.
So why not more alnico in high end audio? Here is my attempt to guess.
"Seas Exotic" alnico tweeter cost over $500 for one crummy
dome tweeter. The alnico Seas woofer is $900 each.
About $3000 for drivers on a two way bookshelf speaker.
Maybe another few thousand for exotic caps and cabinets
not to mention operation expenses so at best I would guess
a minimum of $5000 a pair for materials and keeping the lights
on in your shop. Probably more in reality with labor and other expenses
etc.
The old rule of thumb on speaker markup has always been my understanding
to be around 5x the manufacturing cost to arrive at the list price.
So we are at $25,000 for a bookshelf speaker. Very limited market for
something like that.
The other thing I have noticed is that if you price you items too cheap people won't think they are any good a catch 22, price your self out of the market or get no interest at all...
A lot of the advantages of alnico disappear when you use shorting rings like JBL does with their mud magnet woofers.
Dave
Yes I have read the convincing JBL literature alluding to how their shorting rings virtually make alnico not necessary. Remember some of that stuff was written when cobalt supplies were frozen during the war in Zaire or so the story goes. Was probably a panic behind the doors of every alnico speaker maker in the world, it was a crisis for real in the speaker world that I suppose still has ripples today.
In practice those early crossover from alnico to ceramic JBL drivers are still ceramic and still are VERY lame sounding even if they have shorting rings. I can say this with certainty because I have done the side by side JBL alnico/cermainc comparison tests with identical cones numerous times on those very drivers referred to in the literature. Now I do have an open mind and I am actually hoping one day there will be inexpensive magnet technology that can at least meet the performance and sound of a quality alnico magnet to bring great sound to a wider audience.
As I mentioned in an earlier post there are companies like Acoustic Elegance that are pushing the boundaries of what is possible with a ceramic magnet on their drivers. I applaud their efforts and not in a mean
way I say please keep trying otherwise how would any advances in speaker magnet technology be made?
So here is my take, the performance of a mud magnet is improved (at least on paper and measurable power compression) with shorting rings and vents (2226, etc.) but look at the 1500AL, that driver took the things they were using to improve mud magnets and improved alnico to insane performance levels. Wish there were some different cone and surround options for the 1500AL and the driver was more available. I guess it is more of a show piece for the complete speakers at the moment but maybe that will change some day soon.
Yes there are cheaper grades of alnico but generally high grade alnico is used for expensive high quality hi fi speakers. There will always be a market for high quality goods and there just has been some confusion that ceramic is a high quality magnet material.
Actually I have a pair of old Wharfedale speakers where on has an alnico Driver and the other has a mud magnet (both factory). They sound very similar but I never put them through their paces. I use them as test speakers. I have never compared identical speaker critically, but that certainly would be interesting.
Lots of people say that alnico is too expensive and with new drivers, they'd be correct. However, my main speakers, Spendor BC-1's have alnico magnets and sound wonderful. I have never heard the mud magnet version, so I can't say if that is the reason.
I event have a cheap pair of ancient Mitsubishi speakers that came from a low-end system, that sound wonderful. They have alnico drivers marked Diatone.
My mind is definitely open, but I don't have the listening experience to say for sure. I should probably pay more attention to the Wharfedales.
Dave
Let us know what you find if you ever compare the two sets of Wharfdales.
Try a comparison at three different volume levels, super low, normal and as high as your speaker/amp/ear can take without distortion for in depth comparison.
some other thoughts...
as Michael said above the JBL's with the 1500Al woofer are $68k.
If you have the cash the quality goods are always there and have always been there I suppose.
sucks
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