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In Reply to: RE: Vintage speakers. Alnico Ferrite so on. The good the bad and ugly. Experiences audiomind ;) posted by 2chJunkie on February 21, 2015 at 08:12:05
The system referred to does have a passive but buffered low pass filter feeding a SS amp for the LF boxes. There's No EQ, and no gain.
It's hard to tell sometimes, but most horn systems have exaggerations that are perceived as "more dynamic". So by comparison, a direct radiator system will seem to have less, when what it has actually is more honest precision,
which may seem boring at first, coming from the other "experience".
Like always, it's a taste preference thing.
Follow Ups:
Using the 2245 here too and 2123 mid. Use the 2426 for tweeter use but have many other options. It really is sort of a 4699 converted to home drivers. But again have allot of drivers to play with. And may very well do up some custom boxes kinda like yours in time. So many different ways one could go with it. That to me is the fun of going full on active. Use an Ashly XR2001 or other crossovers. Also Im not anti EQ. Really love the sound of my Klark Teknik inductor based DN27 units. Have many other makes models too. I just see no issue doing minor corrections to make a system play well to ones ear and room with such a tool. Not advising folks to make the smiley face on their EQ as I did as a kid in grade school back when my early audiophile sickness first began LOL...
I really like to know more specifics of your setup if you care to share. Email me if you dont care to post. Either way just like to hear more about it.
Ive wrote about it here before. But I really loved reading and learning all I could from the ESP site. People can nit pick all they want about his beliefs. I just find it sad and hard to believe, no matter what a persons stance is on certain issues... The idea anyone couldnt learn something from that mans MASSIVE archive of papers and information is just silliness. Not all of us a 20 year electronics veteran, Bell Labs EE, that have seen it all and invented half the products out there. I hope I never stop learning. Much has been written there about going active and the pluses and minuses of everything involved along the way. Take what one feels works for them from it.
All the best man. And great post and great system. Must have been a fun and interesting road getting to that point.
Unfortunately you are right saying that MOST horn systems have exaggerations but that does not mean all do.
I will stick my neck out again here and say MOST quality vintage alnico drivers if in good condition are great, usable and compete or sometimes surpass the performance of newer drivers.
Now in my not so humble opinion, most vintage horns (not the drivers) should be melted down and the metal used to make then in to cowbells and the wood horns could be set on fire to melt down the metal horns to be energy friendly. I am only half joking here and this is from a guy with a whole garage full of vintage horns! So few good horns in the vintage world.
Anyway, vintage drivers on a modern design 4-5way round or elliptical wood horn system if done properly and used with good amps will erase from your mind that a horn loudspeaker could ever sound bad, harsh or heaven forbid, have only "perceived dynamics"...man that perceived dynamic horn speaker must be one of the most sorry horn speakers on the planet.
Another though on the "perceived dynamics" horn speaker/s I am guessing they had the wrong amps on them.
Horns are brutally honest about the sound of your amps, good bad and ugly.
Had an Altec model 18 with alnico 604/mataray/tangerine phase plug, etc. and it sounded flat and unlistenable even with some decent tube amps and also amps that had some power (forget most solid state amps on these unless you enjoy torture)
Then a single ended 7-8 watt Airtight tube amp was put on them and holy smokes dynamics, smooth sound...woah WTF?
I was just about to roll the Model 18's out to the curb for the trash to pick them up until I put the right amps on them and realized they need the best amps OR ELSE!!!. No I was not really gonna wheel them to the trash but they were about to be put in storage.
I disagree with your conclusion that the horns have exaggerations inferring they actually are not as capable of a higher dynamic range than a dynamic driver.
Do a little research and you will find any number of studies showing a horn system can easily have a substantially larger dynamic range than an equivalent dynamic driver system. While back in the late '50s and early '60s AR was proving an audience could not tell the difference between. Live orchestra and a recording of the same, they had to purposely chose music with little dynamic range because the AR could not produce half the range the orchestra had wanted to play. I worked for Teledyne, the owner of AR towards the end of their series of tests and had this discussion with the AR engineer. AR at the time had a set of Belles in their lab and in playing the hs recordings of the pieces not used he said the Klipsch could almost deliver both the spls and dynamic range of the orchestra on the pieces but the ARs could not come close and in fact were blowing their tweeters and mids in trying to do so. They the time, the company had a rack of McIntosh MC3500 mono tube amps.
I, am not necessarily keyed in on dynamics as my main speaker, the KLH Nines I ran for decades will attest and these almost never heard of something called dynamic range.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
Yikes....I did not think there was anyone out there that thought horns did not have good dynamics.
Ok I think I understand what GSH is trying to get across with "perceived" dynamics of horns statement.
Here is what I think he meant to say translated: A great (and most likely high efficiency) direct radiator speaker, will do dynamics as good or better than a second rate mediocre horn speaker.
A full range horn with sensitivity of 109db 1w1m will NEVER be mistaken as a speaker with "perceived" dynamics.
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