 
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
|
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
209.103.248.106
In Reply to: RE: Eh depends on the amp posted by Audio Mind on February 19, 2015 at 21:00:08
I wasnt slamming the battery approach either. At least not on a performance level. Its why I brought up the notion of many wonderful sounding car amps that lacked nothing in power and detail in my experience at least. Cant speak from having heard allot of battery powered home amps. But I have heard some. Oddly enough on horns too. I was just trying to point out, that to me, in a home AC environment I dont see the point of going through all the trouble.
On the notion of being polite I got a hard lesson in that becoming a member of the horn camp. Had a long ordeal waiting 10 years for part of my Egar horn order to arrive. I now have Ed (another member here) J horn mids. Bruce tracrix salad bowls for the compression drivers and a Bruce fridge sub. Along with some Klipsch Forte. Love both setups.
What I was wondering. In your opinion, would it be more accurate to say its more a shortcoming of the amp design itself in the dynamics depo? I ask as in my prior post I point out feeling great sounding amps can be made to run on batteries. Assuming an amp was designed well and doesnt exceed current and volt draw limits of the battery. To my not so well educated EE mind. Just seems the battery in such an environment wouldnt be the limiting factor. I dont know....
Ive become a big fan of active amplification. Nice active external Xovers. Pick your amp of choice for the driver. I like SET and single ended in general. Have many tube amps of those too. Also like much SS sound too. All have their strengths and weaknesses. Fun to play around with all to me.
If youd care to share Id like to know your rig and gear? Dont have to be super detailed if you dont like. You have some great points and sound like you more than know your way around this stuff. Be cool to hear about it. Sound like you prefer horns and SET overall.
Thanks much
Follow Ups:
I have tried all kinds of batteries on different amps in different parts of the circuit and I think the issue with batteries is that most batteries seem to have a fairly high impedance, not good for a power supply. Even though my experience with batteries has not been positive (pun ha, ha) so far I do have an open mind and am always willing to listen or try a new approach if someone reports good results in comparison to a well designed wall supply.
Not sure but maybe someone out there has put enough tiny batteries in parallel to reduce the impedance and got some good dynamics out of batteries. I would give that a listen for sure. But again like anything else different types of batteries sound quite different so there would be that issue to deal with as well.
As far as my systems, I have a bunch of stuff laying around both horn and direct radiator, tube and even some interesting low powered and not commercially available solid state for some specialized purposes. The common thread that seems to occur again and again on my systems are/is 1. Alnico speaker magnets 2. Paper speaker cones even on my tweeters, usually, (sometimes metal for compression drivers, etc, etc) 3. Paper for transformer bobbins instead of plastic. 4. I am also a big solid core wire fan, although for best results you have to vary the gauge for different applications with solid core or it could be disappointing. I could go on but I think you get the idea. I usually like vintage style construction techniques to get a sound I like to listen to for long periods of time.
One of my idea's for the purpose of this thread is to find two identical great sounding vintage stereo El84 amps and run them as mono amps while bi wiring the two amp channels on each amp to the speaker's woofer and tweeter. Wah-lah, a cheaper easier way to get more power, headroom and mono amps all at the same time rather than finding four vintage mono amps that would take up quite a bit of space using even the smallest amps. Also at less cost and problems of finding four identical vintage mono amps.
Now this all makes sense.
I also agree that in (many / some, folks will argue either way) one can often make a wonderful new production tube amp with new xfrms, parts that can go toe to toe with allot of vintage amps. No real reason it couldnt if designed properly. And clearly examples like Citation II or MC-3500 so on are obvious exceptions to such an idea. But comparing more mainstream designs its more of grounded stance.
I get the impression you and many others feel allot of vintage tube amps are most appealing when found at reasonable pricing. Not to state the obvious ;) Just when prices start hitting $500-$XXXXK it becomes a case of, could I build it for less. Makes sense to me.
While Im not AS big a fan of Alnico drivers in relation to woofers. I prefer ferrite counter parts for the power handling in most cases. I agree they sound wonderful. And totally agree on paper for mids. Ill never forget being in a car with a past tech who did its stereo. He blasted some good rock music at pretty darn loud levels and it sounded amazing with great imaging and detail. He asked me, what do you think the speakers are. I wouldnt know... He said, its the stock drivers. Thats when he gave his take on how paper just sounds more natural. And then driven with good amps, even stock car speakers can sound amazing. Granted it isnt his end all speakers. He too was a big JBL pro audio driver guy. It certainly made a great case for even cheap paper drivers can sound incredible with a good amp.
I also dig aluminum and titanium domes for tweeters and compression drivers. Alnico and ferrite, either or sound great to me on this regard.
Good luck on your search for the right tube amp for your application. Be wonderful to hear what you end up with when all is said and done. And nice to see you like allot of different gear too. I find so many wonderful examples of good gear in all makes and designs.
It is not just the usually low entry price of the vintage gear that draws me in but I feel if you are building a new amp or speaker you should know what was possible in the past and not go backwards with some aspects of the sound in the new design.
Very interesting on how good amps on what is usually considered junk car speakers made them listenable and actually not bad.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised as I have heard the tiny EL84 amps do some of that magic also on crappy home speakers as well but just never thought to try in a car. Makes perfect sense.
Not to go off topic but look up the story on the JBL 1500AL woofer. The magnetic structure handles 5000+ watts because of the alnico being one of the few magnet materials that doesn't loose power from the heat. Don't try that with a vintage alnico speaker though!
It sure gives credit to the virtues of Alnico.
That being said, when most of JBL's home and pro drivers are about 94 db efficient or more in most cases. Does it really matter that the magnetic core can withstand 5K watts of power / heat? Will there ever be a even remotely realistic scenario where that would or could occur? I cant imagine the coil could come close to withstanding such current. Let alone sustained current. They bring up in the article that in order to design a suspension system to take the extreme excursion they designed a dual spider system rather than compromise the surround to save face for the dynamics. Reminded me of the old Cerwin Vega stroker design.
Not trying to slam the driver by any means. It just kinda reminded me of a number game design. Not sure just how much of its extremes really matter in overall performance in practice. I tried finding a spec sheet for the driver that gave more specifics. Couldnt find one. Weird. I was really curious just what its sensitivity was???
Again not trying to slam the thing. This driver may very well have been a landmark achievement. Just when the dust settles physics still dictates what can and will be achieved with a speaker and its limits.
The big reason why I like the old ferrite bass drivers from JBL isnt really the magnet. Its the fact they have far greater power handling and Xmax ranges in many cases. On lansingheritage its often talked about, the differences between a LE15A and a 2235H. In a nut shell the H has around 2x or more the power handling and over 2x the Xmax. All while being nearly the same efficiency. Its simply going to make more bass and take more power. While not all folks listen at levels that would make a LE15A inadequate. Just if one wants a system that will go that extra mile, the newer drivers like the 2234 or 2235 were nice new additions. I really like them more than the older LE15A drivers I used to use. Both great drivers just different abilities.
I got a kick out of a paragraph I found while trying to find info on above drivers.... Its from an admin over there...
"Most of the qualifying 4" motors will loose 1 - 1.5 dB unless they are pummeled. Some of the older 3" with really short magnets, like the 2213A and 123A will typically be around 3 dB down. They go really easily. The old Decade woofers (116A and 127A) only had to see an amplifier in the room and they got really nervous. FYI, the new 1500Al used in the S9800 can take continued pulses of 5000 watts and loose no more than 1%. The test can only be done a few times before the coil is destroyed, but the magnetic assembly is totally stable."
All this being said Im sure a wonderful woofer or sub could be made around Alnico. But considering few exist today, it begs the question why. I assume cost of production plays a large part. And would the gains it MAY present be worth it. Who knows. All this may change in time. Like you say of batteries for power. If a better design comes forward...
Again neat design and sounds very impressive. Sadly its as rare and costly as say a MC-3500
I love talking speakers but I would like to keep this thread on the subject of great sounding vintage EL84/7189 amps based amps if possible as there has been a better response than expected to the question and now the thread is getting kinda big.
Alhtough I just had to mention the Jbl 1500AL for you to read about because it is such a cool and absurd driver, and to let you know alnico does not necessarily mean low power.
enjoy
Why not make another post about vintage speakers? I will chime in and once I get started talking about speakers it is hard to shut me up.
Post a Followup:
| FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
Top of Page ]
[ Contact Us ]
[ Support/Wish List ]
[ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
