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Looking for a rough pecking order on two power tube vintage EL84 power amps.List the usual suspects in order of your favorites like, Pilot, Scott, Fisher, Heathkit, Eico, Sherwood, Dynaco etc,etc etc. (this is not my order just an example) plus weird stuff and lesser known as well as long as there are two EL84 power tubes and the amps are vintage.
Please just write a few sentences at most on what is liked and not liked about each amps sound from favorite to least favorite.
Personally I am only interested in the power amplifiers not the
integrated amps but some of the integrated amps had the same iron
so list the integrated amps if that is all you have heard.There are so many good EL84 amps out there and the old adage seems to be somewhat true about there not being an EL84 amp that was not liked. Maybe so but I know some of these amps have to be slightly better than others.
Thanks!
PS-as one poster pointed out the 7189 tubed amps are very similar and should be included. thanks.
Edits: 02/19/15Follow Ups:
Never met (heard) an el84 amp I didn't like. I bought a Scott 399 receiver because I fell for the looks and it used 7189's...Home Run!
Also have a SEP/el84 Glow Audio One I use from time to time. Also very sweet.
Did you actually just buy this?
Great looking. I'm not familiar with Scott receivers. But do try to have it restored either way.
enjoy
charles
Thanks. Yes, bought it, still own it and it has been restored.
Boy oh boy, that thing is a stunner!
If sounds half as good as looks, then your in sonic heaven.
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
Thanks. Sounds like Heaven to me. Looks good lit up at night to.
What is the smaller box to the left of the receiver?
It's a Scott 335 multiplex decoder.
The 399 was introduced around 1960 at the dawning of FM "Stereo". It has a mono tuner in it with a mpx out jack so you could add an outboard decoder when the time came.
I just have the 399 now and have found that FM mono can be pretty nice to listen to.
Me too, much less distracting to not have the shhhshshshhshshsh...on the
the weaker stations.
Wow...that Scott is a beautiful design and seems in nice shape too. Humans and from what I am told monkey's as well seem to be drawn in to shiny gold things I guess..LOL..
I was surprised to see the glow amp was point to point hand wired for the $499 price. Leaving the power thing out of the equation how does the glow amp sound next to the vintage stuff?
Thanks. I'd get a "NO MONKEYS OR HUMANS WITHIN 10 FEET' sign but they'd just ignore it. :-)
The Vintage stuff sound a "little" more romantic (in a good way). With a full tube receiver you get the tube preamp and tube tuner included in the package.
The Glow has it's own volume control and I usually run a tuner or CD player into it (both SS). You have me thinking about trying it with my own tube preamp. Hmmmmm.
A velvet movie theater rope would not look out of place in front of that..!
Yes,I understand about the vintage "romantic sound" versus the modern stuff.
Now I need to get back to admiring your Scott receiver...
Sherwood S-5000 rebuilt by Mike Samra.
I have had a few EL84/7189 based amps. As you indicated in your post - there is no bad EL84/7189 based amp. They are just so dammed musical and full sounding.I have owned three Stromberg Carlson ASR-433 integrateds, a Magnavox console (my grandfather's), a Fisher sa-16, and a Sherwood S-5000. The Sherwood is a 1st series with big transformers and a 5 tube preamp section.
Let me just preface my comments; Any vintage amp/integrated will require a rebuild from a qualified tech before being put into service.
The Stromberg Carlson asr-433 is the sleeper. It doesn't have the massive transformers like those on the S-5000, but they are adequate for the 12 wpc it puts out. If you have efficient speakers (or at least a benign impedance) this thing can sound really really good. These can be had for $150 to $350 depending on condition all day long. The S-C asr-433 pictured top I sold to inmate Viridian 6 or 7 years back. The one pictured below I had rebuilt and still own.
The Fisher sa-16 is another nice little amp. It does not do bass the way the S-5000 does, but is as detailed and it really responds to tube rolling.
The Sherwood S-5000 is the best of the EL84/7189 amps that I have heard.
You can do a search and find plenty of posts and opinions (all good) about this amp. I currently have one that was rebuilt by none other than Mike Samra that I can't say enough great things about. I am ashamed to admit that I haven't really listened to it for 3 weeks as I was crushed by "the list". The list was given to me a month ago by my wife in preparation for our daughter's wedding last weekend.Full, detailed, sweet, and gutsy are the words that best describe it. I run 6p14p-er and Amprex 7189 output tubes along with Telefunken smooth plate 12ax7's. As Eli stated, the Russian 6p14p is a very rugged and good sounding tube and a viable option to the nearly unobtanium nos 7189.
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
Edits: 02/20/15
What Fisher model is that on the bottom shelf? Looks similar to my X101.
I have a basket case Fisher X101 that works but is a little too far gone to judge sound of. The consensus on the net is that the X101 in good working order is pretty up there in sound quality with the best of the vintage EL84/7189 stuff. I am curious if the X101 is really that great and if so maybe I should move it closer to the head of line for my projects.
As I mentioned before the X101 output transformers look a little smaller than the Fisher power amp only models so I am not sure about the bass on the X101.
The Fisher on the bottom shelf (pictured on a TV tray) is a X-202-B integrated that was rebuilt by NOS Valves.
It's a 7591 based amp and while it sounds good, it is not in the same class as the Sherwood S-5000 - in my opinion.
I like the sound of the 7189 tube better than the 7591, and I also generally prefer tube (Mullard GZ34) to solid state rectification.
There is a Eico HF-81 for sale on the AA Trader for $550 at this time that I
I have no affiliation with. That price seems good, and you could get Mike or Don to do stem to stern rebuild and have a very, very fine integrated amp that would hold its own against most anything in its class.
Good luck.
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
Moved
Edits: 02/20/15
That S-5000 sure is hard to beat. Mine sits next to a $3800 stereo. And it can hold its own against even the big boys with NOOOOOOOO problem!
The 7189 is an EL84 "on steroids". If 7189 amps are included in the discussion, definitely check out the Sherwood 5000.BTW, some of the Fisher and Scott models mentioned may really be 7189, not EL84.
The current production, made in Russia, 6p14p-ev, AKA EL84M, is a genuine 7189 equivalent that exhibits quite decent sonics, along with being tougher than the proverbial brick outhouse.
Eli D.
Edits: 02/19/15
definitely some of the scott models mentioned are 7189. an el84 shouldn't be used in it's place since the 7189 runs at higher voltage. i have the russian equivalents in my 299, purchased from and recommended by senor McShane, and totally agree with Eli's statement. they sound good too.
dave
I have heard good things about the Russian 6N14P equivalents. Is that what you are talking about?
The 6p14p-ev that Eli mentioned.
We are talking about the 6П14П-ЕВ (6p14p-ev), AKA EL84M. If a 6П14П specimen lacks the EB suffix, pass it by, as that variant is a very mediocre EL84/6BQ5 equivalent.
Eli D.
Yeah how do those 6П14П-ЕВ (6p14p-ev)sound? Are they comparable to any good quality American and European NOS tubes in sound?
They sound damned good. NOS 7189s are all but unobtainable. We are very lucky to have the Russian variant, as it keeps some fine equipment working. Without affordable 7189 equivalent stock being available, all sorts of nice gear would have to be RADICALLY reengineered. What a FUGLY thought. :> ((
Eli D.
Nice.
I have heard a Sherwood 5000 integrated, it is a beautiful sounding amp, a friend of mine has one. Not as much detail as his custom 2A3 mono blocks but still an amp you could listen to all day.
AM
Is the Sherwood rebuilt and upgraded..I'm putting finishing touches on one for a friend New Orleans and this is the larger one and I can tell you with the right rebuild,it runs with many of the new amps in the 3500 to 5k dollar range..Airtime knows.
"If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad; if it measures bad and sounds good, you have measured the wrong thing."
- Daniel R. von Recklinghausen
Mike's right, you're not getting much better than a properly rebuilt Sherwood.
I just bought a $2300 tubed preamp for my Solid State amplifier. And the Sherwood STILL!!!! holds its own against it.
charles
I don't know any of the details of my friends Sherwood 5000. I will ask next time.
One of his custom 2A3 amps blew up so we put the Sherwood on. I am guessing it is all stock, seemed like the perfect cocktail party amp, very smooth and beautiful sound but did not demand your attention like the 2A3 mono amps.
And they do not blow up, another advantage.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
LOL!!!
I've been on the audio wheel a LONG time. And I would have to say that there is nothing like a well restored Sherwood S-5000.
But check out some options that you see going up for sale and post. I would wait out a Sherwood.
charles
But I much prefer the circuit in the Dynaco ST-35, so it is the one that gets my vote. It is a simple effective circuit that drives the EL84 well.
Dave
Have not heard SCA-35 but I have had many PAS pre's and with most of the vintage pre's the switches are quirky, pots are usually worn or crackly plus it always seemed to me the PAS was rolled off in the bass of the phono section especially. With a simple DIY modern tube line stage I think you could easily beat the complicated designs of yesteryear.
I almost like the ST35 except I am not sure about the original solid state rectifier sound.
Maybe there are some guys out there that could chime in who know of some high voltage modern diodes that are closer in sound to a tube rectifier?
UF4007s are MUCH quieter than earlier PN junction types. They are rated 1000 PIV/1 A. and come in the convenient DO41 axial lead package. The UF4007 is a low cost, drop in, replacement for the very noisy 1N4007.
If "zero" switching noise is what you're looking for, Cree makes silicon carbide (SiC) Schottky diodes that are up to 1200 PIV. These parts come in TO220 packages and may be mechanically problematic in a retrofit situation.
Eli D.
And Asylum Sponsor Uncle Ned makes a nice revised board with easy to find tubes.
Dave
A Schottky diode with 1200v piv !!!....cool wow I have been out of it for too long, the last time I checked they were like 100 or 200 volts. Been away from the latest tech for too long I guess...Thank you very much for the heads up.
I bet they are not too far off in sound form tube rectifiers as earlier diodes like painful sounding IN4007's. At least they are painful to my ear.
I bet they are not too far off in sound form tube rectifiers as earlier diodes like painful sounding IN4007's. At least they are painful to my ear.
You are 100% spot on..They are so quiet and so linear and they don't sag.
The Schottkys have been an absolute blessing.If people are smart,amps like the Dynaco ST70 should have the GZ34 removed and they should put in Schottkys. This will not only park the 5 volt winding and save stress on the power trans,they amp will run cooler and give you higher power and lower distortion..The GZ34 is pretty close to it's 250ma limit in the ST70 especially if you are running a three tube driver board.
"If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad; if it measures bad and sounds good, you have measured the wrong thing."
- Daniel R. von Recklinghausen
Yep, here you go...Link below.
Thanks a million! I am eager to try them.
No love for the magnavox console series..such as the 93-02? I sure love mine.
"When the demon is at your door, in the mornin' it won't be there no more"
Steely Dan
I know I looked into May's sound before but needed a refresher. Ive personally thought the sound May makes with his guitar is some of the greatest "tone" and overdrive Ive ever heard in a guitar sound. Read the wiki page last night and relearned ;) he almost exclusively uses a modded, by him, VOX AC30TRX with all the circuitry stripped out other than its clean channel. Then keeps it wide open and uses a home made, again by him, overdrive pedal and lastly his home made (must I say it) by him, guitar. I believe all AC30s are PPP EL84. To each his own but that clean, sustaining, over driven sound of his simply tops my list of badass sound. It was cool to read there how Steve Vai says May is one of his favs and is one guitarist he simply cant copy the sound of. Never tire of his wails on Love of My Life and Millionaire Waltz.
Sorry for my long winded waxing...
First off I couldnt agree with Airtime more. I like to give many folks in this forum the benefit of the doubt they know this and will act accordingly. However many also dont. Refurbing an old tube amp is a must. Folks can debate about the stability and sound of older coupling caps. Very common in the guitar scene. But doing a power supply rebuild is a must at min. And many of the old carbon resistors are failing in many ways too. Then even the core circuit itself can leave things to be desired. Which brings me to...
It was cool to see all the love for the old Heathkit iron. I couldnt agree more. I have this old AA-151 which was completely overhauled by Don Allen. Ive written about it here before. But its input circuit was a bad design. It would pass all line signals through a needless gain stage just incase it was the phono input and the rest just got chopped back down. Amongst a few other things. All this and more was touched up by Don. Great amp now. Has deep bass like I rarely hear from such a low power tube amp. But again, it got a MUCH needed overhaul before real use. Also I believe this and the other mentioned Heath EL84 amps use the same output transformer. They sure look like it and I recall reading many did. Have a rougher 151 and its older smaller black chassis version too. Id like to pull the iron and have a power amp made out of it.
Cant speak for many other vintage EL84 amps but these Heaths sure sound damn good to my ears.
Fun read.
Brian May has to have one of the sweetest guitar tones in all of rock music for sure. Although it is my understanding Brian did not always use a big chuffin' quad EL84 AC30 in the studio but a tiny battery powered solid state car amplifier with a bookshelf speaker and his treble booster pedal. The AC30's were for live and even then I heard rumors he used his
tiny solid state amp miked in to the AC30's.
Hate to take the guitar god using banks of steaming EL84's out of the equation because that is what I had always imagined he was using when listening to Brian Play on recordings. There is a bunch of info on it if you look up Brian May Special Recording Amp.The original special recording amp is only .45 of a watt and probably a very simple early solid state design using quiet battery power.
My theory is that the very first solid state designs were made to compete with tubes directly so there is a little magic in SOME of the early solid state designs, at least that is my opinion. Only took a few years for that magic to completely disappear though. Guess it had to do with people wanting solid state amps that did not blow up or something like that, I don't know. Please give me an El84 amp over solid state anything.
I think Brian was looking for a unique sound, with our El84 amps I think most of us are looking for beauty and clear sound reproduction. Ok now I am rambling...
~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
The mind absolutely does have a fire wall, we just have to turn it on..LOL and my firewall was off in the beginning of the thread...sorry, didn't think there would be so much interest in the thread.
I guess the old adage "never met an El84 amp I did not like" is true judging from the enthusiasm and number of responses. Thanks everyone.
Favorite EL84/7189 power amp rough pecking order discussion from now on.
I completely agree that his sound really comes off almost too clean and strong as opposed to the classic tube guitar sound. Infact when I hear it, if it were a modern recording I would swear it was being put through a really stiff compressor possibly with sustain. It really defies odds with how long he could hold a strong note so cleanly. One would think the breakup would occur with a AC30 far more pronounced.
I just recently learned of all the love for old Roland SS guitar amps. Clearly these nothing wrong with SS done right.
I have no problem with the thought of it being a simple SS DC amp. Nothing wrong with that. Heck look at Nelson Pass's amps. Especially the current ones. Harkens to the classic KISS principal.
Its funny you mention car amps being the choice too. I recently got back into car audio after a 15+ year hiatus. I had the luxury of spending over an hr and half talking to a well known designer of gory days car amps. He is also a big tube and vinyl fan too. One of common criticisms of designs then and now was complexity. He felt that of many home amps too. When I made the semi foolish remark of class D amps of today being too complex and risky vs old school ones. I remarked about one he designed that I just bought from him. He said, you think that amp with 10 output devices per ch and how many driver and regulator transistors is less complex than a D one with less than half?!? LOL good rebuttal It inspired me to pick up some mint Eclipse amps from their hey day. A PA5422 for mids and tweets and a 33230 for running a sub. At $100 each seems little reason not to try.
Also a while back got lucky and found an old Pioneer GM120. Now thats an old car amp. Along with 2 NIB BGW 602B. Those are real rare birds.
Today found a Kenwood KR-7400 at a thrift. Never had a kenny from that era. Sounds promising. And love nothing more than high powered mid 80s era pro amps for speakers that just cant get enough. Love my MC250s too for sweet SS sound too. Needless to say I have much love for SS too. Nothing wrong with it.
Again love this behind the scenes info. When one listens to May's sound its hard to find any fault in player or tone :)
The 500 year old wood on May's Red Special guitar and talented guitar playing would probably sound good through almost anything as I think he has proven.
I also think most of the compressed sound on his amp comes from the battery power, I have personally found batteries to lack dynamics. Sorry battery lovers.
I bet now there will be someone to chime in about how there is new battery technology that has kick butt dynamics.
I will admit I had no clue about the 1200 volt Schottky diodes so I am open minded and would love to hear about new stuff too. Hot rodding the inexpensive vintage gear with new key parts is fun. Why should the resto-mod car guys get all the fun...!
Nearly all the amps I use in the house are simply not practical to run off any normal battery.
Not that a PS stage cant be engineered to ramp up voltage. But just looking at 100+ watt class AB amp sections like I mostly use I just dont see any point. You figure the rail voltage is often 40-90+ in some cases. How long or how many batteries would you want sitting around??? Why bother. Sure some low powered SS amps with lower rail voltage could get away with such a setup easier, but again why bother? Then you look into something to shut down the amp and remove it from the cell so you can safely charge it. Just seems like so much work.
That being said theres always the new class D stuff. Much easier to get away with such an approach if one cares to.
Ill always remember a tech I used to use talking about such things and power conditioners. Paraphrasing for him, all that stuff is BS. If you properly design a PS for an amp you dont need any of that. It should properly decouple the wall voltage and keep it steady and remove the common noise found in an AC line. Clearly this doesnt account for excessive volt sag or extreme noise. But in a relatively normal environment. Im not smart enough on the topic to take a strong and credible stance. But my experiences show this view to be pretty well founded.
When talking the power you say May's amp generated I dont see any worry of dynamics LOL. Most of those sub 10 watt (minus a Pass class A amp ;) dont need boat loads of current or volts. I dont see any harm here. Not to mention the car audio scene. Clearly a 12v based amp can be made that sounds great and has loads of dynamics. I just dont see the need when one has nice AC lines in the home. At least not for my needs.
Im with you tho. For my high power class AB output SS amps... A good ol big ass linear PS sure sounds good to these ears :)
And yes Brian's guitar is another one off work of art like the player himself. I also really dig the mellow laid back sound of the late Jim Hall's playing. Not that he had a signature amp sound per se. But his playing sure had a signature sound to my ears. And he favored a mellow milky amp sound to my ears. Kinda reminds me of my 69 Traynor YSR-1 head I had rebuilt. Left the coupling caps there as they were fine. But PS caps replaced and I had a giant hammond choke added as mine didnt get one from the factory for some reason. SS rectification with EL34 PP power. My god that head is thick, milky with a nicely rolled top end. But if you want over drive or pedal distortion it wont let you down either. Just balls to the wall power. Love it. Total opposite of the Sunn Sentura I had rebuilt. Very marshall bright and in your face. Oddly enough GZ34 rectified. Again just funny how a circuit can change the sound regardless of common stereo types. But Im sure being a designer yourself this is all, well duh, thoughts LOL....
Again thanks for the input and info. Love hearing all this stuff and folks takes.
I was trying to be polite to the battery people but maybe I didn't make myself very clear, in my opinion batteries are very un-dynamic and should not be used in a real audio system. End of story for me unless some tech geek can tell me there is some new technology in batteries that solves all the problems batteries have with dynamics.
The black background of the batteries does not make up for the lack of dynamics for me with batteries. You are talking to a horn/high efficiency speaker lover here, I am addicted to realistic dynamics.
I wasnt slamming the battery approach either. At least not on a performance level. Its why I brought up the notion of many wonderful sounding car amps that lacked nothing in power and detail in my experience at least. Cant speak from having heard allot of battery powered home amps. But I have heard some. Oddly enough on horns too. I was just trying to point out, that to me, in a home AC environment I dont see the point of going through all the trouble.
On the notion of being polite I got a hard lesson in that becoming a member of the horn camp. Had a long ordeal waiting 10 years for part of my Egar horn order to arrive. I now have Ed (another member here) J horn mids. Bruce tracrix salad bowls for the compression drivers and a Bruce fridge sub. Along with some Klipsch Forte. Love both setups.
What I was wondering. In your opinion, would it be more accurate to say its more a shortcoming of the amp design itself in the dynamics depo? I ask as in my prior post I point out feeling great sounding amps can be made to run on batteries. Assuming an amp was designed well and doesnt exceed current and volt draw limits of the battery. To my not so well educated EE mind. Just seems the battery in such an environment wouldnt be the limiting factor. I dont know....
Ive become a big fan of active amplification. Nice active external Xovers. Pick your amp of choice for the driver. I like SET and single ended in general. Have many tube amps of those too. Also like much SS sound too. All have their strengths and weaknesses. Fun to play around with all to me.
If youd care to share Id like to know your rig and gear? Dont have to be super detailed if you dont like. You have some great points and sound like you more than know your way around this stuff. Be cool to hear about it. Sound like you prefer horns and SET overall.
Thanks much
I have tried all kinds of batteries on different amps in different parts of the circuit and I think the issue with batteries is that most batteries seem to have a fairly high impedance, not good for a power supply. Even though my experience with batteries has not been positive (pun ha, ha) so far I do have an open mind and am always willing to listen or try a new approach if someone reports good results in comparison to a well designed wall supply.
Not sure but maybe someone out there has put enough tiny batteries in parallel to reduce the impedance and got some good dynamics out of batteries. I would give that a listen for sure. But again like anything else different types of batteries sound quite different so there would be that issue to deal with as well.
As far as my systems, I have a bunch of stuff laying around both horn and direct radiator, tube and even some interesting low powered and not commercially available solid state for some specialized purposes. The common thread that seems to occur again and again on my systems are/is 1. Alnico speaker magnets 2. Paper speaker cones even on my tweeters, usually, (sometimes metal for compression drivers, etc, etc) 3. Paper for transformer bobbins instead of plastic. 4. I am also a big solid core wire fan, although for best results you have to vary the gauge for different applications with solid core or it could be disappointing. I could go on but I think you get the idea. I usually like vintage style construction techniques to get a sound I like to listen to for long periods of time.
One of my idea's for the purpose of this thread is to find two identical great sounding vintage stereo El84 amps and run them as mono amps while bi wiring the two amp channels on each amp to the speaker's woofer and tweeter. Wah-lah, a cheaper easier way to get more power, headroom and mono amps all at the same time rather than finding four vintage mono amps that would take up quite a bit of space using even the smallest amps. Also at less cost and problems of finding four identical vintage mono amps.
Now this all makes sense.
I also agree that in (many / some, folks will argue either way) one can often make a wonderful new production tube amp with new xfrms, parts that can go toe to toe with allot of vintage amps. No real reason it couldnt if designed properly. And clearly examples like Citation II or MC-3500 so on are obvious exceptions to such an idea. But comparing more mainstream designs its more of grounded stance.
I get the impression you and many others feel allot of vintage tube amps are most appealing when found at reasonable pricing. Not to state the obvious ;) Just when prices start hitting $500-$XXXXK it becomes a case of, could I build it for less. Makes sense to me.
While Im not AS big a fan of Alnico drivers in relation to woofers. I prefer ferrite counter parts for the power handling in most cases. I agree they sound wonderful. And totally agree on paper for mids. Ill never forget being in a car with a past tech who did its stereo. He blasted some good rock music at pretty darn loud levels and it sounded amazing with great imaging and detail. He asked me, what do you think the speakers are. I wouldnt know... He said, its the stock drivers. Thats when he gave his take on how paper just sounds more natural. And then driven with good amps, even stock car speakers can sound amazing. Granted it isnt his end all speakers. He too was a big JBL pro audio driver guy. It certainly made a great case for even cheap paper drivers can sound incredible with a good amp.
I also dig aluminum and titanium domes for tweeters and compression drivers. Alnico and ferrite, either or sound great to me on this regard.
Good luck on your search for the right tube amp for your application. Be wonderful to hear what you end up with when all is said and done. And nice to see you like allot of different gear too. I find so many wonderful examples of good gear in all makes and designs.
It is not just the usually low entry price of the vintage gear that draws me in but I feel if you are building a new amp or speaker you should know what was possible in the past and not go backwards with some aspects of the sound in the new design.
Very interesting on how good amps on what is usually considered junk car speakers made them listenable and actually not bad.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised as I have heard the tiny EL84 amps do some of that magic also on crappy home speakers as well but just never thought to try in a car. Makes perfect sense.
Not to go off topic but look up the story on the JBL 1500AL woofer. The magnetic structure handles 5000+ watts because of the alnico being one of the few magnet materials that doesn't loose power from the heat. Don't try that with a vintage alnico speaker though!
It sure gives credit to the virtues of Alnico.
That being said, when most of JBL's home and pro drivers are about 94 db efficient or more in most cases. Does it really matter that the magnetic core can withstand 5K watts of power / heat? Will there ever be a even remotely realistic scenario where that would or could occur? I cant imagine the coil could come close to withstanding such current. Let alone sustained current. They bring up in the article that in order to design a suspension system to take the extreme excursion they designed a dual spider system rather than compromise the surround to save face for the dynamics. Reminded me of the old Cerwin Vega stroker design.
Not trying to slam the driver by any means. It just kinda reminded me of a number game design. Not sure just how much of its extremes really matter in overall performance in practice. I tried finding a spec sheet for the driver that gave more specifics. Couldnt find one. Weird. I was really curious just what its sensitivity was???
Again not trying to slam the thing. This driver may very well have been a landmark achievement. Just when the dust settles physics still dictates what can and will be achieved with a speaker and its limits.
The big reason why I like the old ferrite bass drivers from JBL isnt really the magnet. Its the fact they have far greater power handling and Xmax ranges in many cases. On lansingheritage its often talked about, the differences between a LE15A and a 2235H. In a nut shell the H has around 2x or more the power handling and over 2x the Xmax. All while being nearly the same efficiency. Its simply going to make more bass and take more power. While not all folks listen at levels that would make a LE15A inadequate. Just if one wants a system that will go that extra mile, the newer drivers like the 2234 or 2235 were nice new additions. I really like them more than the older LE15A drivers I used to use. Both great drivers just different abilities.
I got a kick out of a paragraph I found while trying to find info on above drivers.... Its from an admin over there...
"Most of the qualifying 4" motors will loose 1 - 1.5 dB unless they are pummeled. Some of the older 3" with really short magnets, like the 2213A and 123A will typically be around 3 dB down. They go really easily. The old Decade woofers (116A and 127A) only had to see an amplifier in the room and they got really nervous. FYI, the new 1500Al used in the S9800 can take continued pulses of 5000 watts and loose no more than 1%. The test can only be done a few times before the coil is destroyed, but the magnetic assembly is totally stable."
All this being said Im sure a wonderful woofer or sub could be made around Alnico. But considering few exist today, it begs the question why. I assume cost of production plays a large part. And would the gains it MAY present be worth it. Who knows. All this may change in time. Like you say of batteries for power. If a better design comes forward...
Again neat design and sounds very impressive. Sadly its as rare and costly as say a MC-3500
I love talking speakers but I would like to keep this thread on the subject of great sounding vintage EL84/7189 amps based amps if possible as there has been a better response than expected to the question and now the thread is getting kinda big.
Alhtough I just had to mention the Jbl 1500AL for you to read about because it is such a cool and absurd driver, and to let you know alnico does not necessarily mean low power.
enjoy
Why not make another post about vintage speakers? I will chime in and once I get started talking about speakers it is hard to shut me up.
At this point it is a MUST that those amps be restored!!!!So more important than which is better, is how are you going to restore it.
You can take a great EL84 amp and do a crappy job restoring it - making IT average. Or take an average EL84 and restore it properly with quality parts in the right places and make it ABOVE average.
At this point a professional restoration with the proper high quality parts is more important than the actual pecking order.
Just my opinion.
charles
Edits: 02/19/15 02/19/15 02/19/15
Yes I agree, leaky caps, worn tubes and out of spec resistors are no fun.
Although if a worn amp sounds decent in poor condition it will be a good candidate for restoration and that is what I am getting at.
There are so many nice vintage El84/7189 amps out there and I am trying to
sift through the field find the best ones to mess with and restore if needed.
.....but when I got the Acrosound Stereo 20-20 that was the end. Sold the Leak and Dyna, Kept the Eico and Scott. But IMHO the Acro is head and shoulders the best. Ymmv.
For a more modern amp the Music Reference RM-10 is fantastic.
and it was very good.
I currently have two *modified LEAK Stereo 20s see *Review here at AA.
The LEAK TL12 Plus monos are also nice amps, the PT's run a good bit cooler than those in ST20s do. IMO they need the pentode input tube and the 12AX7 splitter driver replaced - and circuit mods - as per my St20s.
Early RM (Music Reference) PP EL84 amps might be considered vintage and I have heard two examples. Very good amps, quite neutral for valve amps. Should go a few db louder given the power output.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Fisher 100 control amp. Best I heard.
Yes, seems like I am getting the answers I had hoped for, this question is almost at the level of asking what the best pizza place in New York City is!!! ok maybe not that heated but a great debate...LOL
In order of my preference:
Heath AA-111 stereo
Eico HF-14 monoblocks
Fisher 20a monoblocks
Fisher 30a monoblocks
Eico HF86 sounds nice, but more modern than the above.
I owned a Pilot 232 but it was just ok- others rave about it however.
Best, Ross
Scott 299
Fisher SA 16
Heathkit UA-1
There was a Philips console that I saw in passing - the insides looked good - but never heard it
I had a Pilot back in college - could not tell you the model...
and at this point - the Music Reference RM-10 (it's almost vintage)
The whys are too personal to get into.
I'd probably go Acrosound 20/20 first, maybe Leak 20 or pilot 232 second, say Fisher sa-100 third, then the eico's (think they were hf14's and 30's?).
EL-84's are so easy to drive you don't need to get fancy. I'd base my decisions first on if I found I liked ultra-linear or pentode operation best....and second on tubes used and if they can still be had at reasonable cost.
BTW,"if" you don't need to squeeze maximum power out of the tubes, and "if" you are willing to do a little work.....you can build one yourself.
The Acrosound must have some darn good iron to beat out point to point wired models like the Leak and Pilot.
I have some UA-2 Heathkits on the way with some original unmodified console model Packard Bell amps (the ones that Bob Carver likes) all in the mail right now. This El84 stuff is fun because it is so affordable!
I was thinking about building some mono amps withe Fisher X101 iron I have but I need another power trans for mono blocks to do it right. I figure if I am taking the time to build why not do mono block amps. Although looking at the fisher X100 it seems my X101 outputs are a little undersized in comparison so I am on the fence with that.
...it's about Keroes push-pull implementation of the Loftin-White circuit where the driver is direct coupled to the output tubes, IMHO.
"it's about Keroes push-pull implementation of the Loftin-White circuit where the driver is direct coupled to the output tubes"
The amp is direct coupled but has no relationaship at all with the Loftin White amp which has very specific design criteria. Many amps are direct coupled and most have no relationship with the LW.
It's fine to disagree, but without any supporting statement to justify your assertion, the disagreement is unfounded. The Loftin White circuit is much more than just direct coupling; there are specific technical requirement that should be implemented to be considered to be a circuit derived from the Loftin White:
1. direct coupled driver to output tube
2. the driver tube derives its voltage from the cathode resistor of the output tube.
3. the last capacitor in the power supply bypasses to the cathode of the output tube.
Several contemporary topologies meet the criteria. Both the 'monkey' and the 'DRD' amps come to mind and predictably they are single ended just like the original; they derive their driver stage voltage from the cathode of the output tubes, and the last cap in the PS is bypassed to the cathode of the output tube.
The Acrosound 20/20 does not meet the criteria and I can think of no PP amp that does.
and I would point out that your assertion likewise lacks citations.
I also disagree that there are lots of direct coupled amps out there, we are speaking of vintage in this thread. I would appreciate knowing which ones those are.
nt
I pulled up Acrosound 20/20, Leak 20 and Pilot 232 schematics.
Yes not only does the Acro have one less set of coupling caps it also has takes away a gain stage or two and has a choke in the power supply.
All of which should make for a smoother amp with a blacker background than the other two amps I would imagine. Nice!
IMHO, all things equal:
1) I'd rather have a choke input power supply with a tube rectifier.
2) I'd rather have a LTP splitter, then a split-load, and lastly a paraphase. If you can't tell from looking at a schematic it would help you to learn that skill.
3) Direct coupling, when done in a safe manner, is to be preferred.
4) For most output tubes, I'd lean towards ultra-linear or triode over pentode/tetrode.
5) I'm not a fan of high mu (gain), low current tubes like a 12AX7 (12au7/12bh7/12at7 aren't that much better). Much rather have an amp that used a 6sn7.
6) It all starts with great output transformers, then a good power transformer and choke. All the rest is easily/cheaply changed.
"If" you could find an Acrosound 20-20 for sale I'm not sure you could stomach the asking price. I couldn't and wouldn't. The pilot used to be a sleeper. Sherwoods have a cleaner/less tubey sound that I perfer but need a "lot" of part replacements and are hard to work on due to cramped chassis. Fisher typically has some of the best resistors and caps of all the vintage amps....nice euro (usually german) resistors/caps/tubes.
The biggest lesson I have learned in my journey! Great amp designs are usually great because of the nifty feedback circuits (and these circuit values are very dependent on parts, parts that can't be bought anymore, so are hard to duplicate without knowledge and test equipment). These feedback circuits reduce output impedance and increase damping factor. That allows the amps to cope with difficult speaker loads.
Moral of the story? Obtain speakers that have a constant impedance, are upwards/over 100dB per watt, and use an electronic crossover with solid state amps for the bass under 125 hertz. If you do that, then you don't need one of those great high power tube circuit amps. In fact you can get by very nicely with a zero feedback, simple, low powered amp. Those are really easy to build yourself. The approach also open the doors to otherwise unsuitable tubes, such as most of the directly heated triodes.
1.Wouldn't you want to use a choke with solid state rectifier also?
2.What about pentode wired in triode?
3.I am curious on which parts you are referring to that can't be bought any more besides the filter cap cans? (even those have people who gut them and stuff them with new caps.) Weird output transformers?
I also wouldn't spend the money on an Acrosound 20/20 at high retail but now that I know they are a good sounding amp I spend a few bucks to pick one up in a dusty corner where I may have passed on it before and that is the point of the thread finding the pecking order of vintage amps.
Yes 6sn7's are some of my favorite driver tubes but are pretty rare in comparison to the 12XXX family unfortunately.
1.Wouldn't you want to use a choke with solid state rectifier also?
Yes, I would. I just find I like the sound of tube rectifiers. Damper diodes are some of the best IMHO.
2.What about pentode wired in triode?
Those are fine. Often better than they are as pentodes if you don't need the power. Pentodes aren't evil though. They can even make wonderful driver tubes.
3.I am curious on which parts you are referring to that can't be bought any more besides the filter cap cans? (even those have people who gut them and stuff them with new caps.) Weird output transformers?
Yes, the output/interstage transformers. And to a certain extent chokes that are used to load tubes and/or split phases. It is these very parts that account for the high prices of some vintage amps. Check out prices on anything western electric, the old rca theatre amps, some of the altec lansing, brooks 12a, etc. Remember the feedback loops (global ones) have to be designed around these parts behavior. So cloning some of the better older amps isn't so simple without the original parts.
I also wouldn't spend the money on an Acrosound 20/20 at high retail but now that I know they are a good sounding amp I spend a few bucks to pick one up in a dusty corner where I may have passed on it before and that is the point of the thread finding the pecking order of vintage amps.
I wish you luck. Better chance with an old magnavox:)
Yes 6sn7's are some of my favorite driver tubes but are pretty rare in comparison to the 12XXX family unfortunately.
One of the advantages of building your own is using non-standard tubes. Often tubes were offered in a range of heater voltages, some of them in seemingly odd ball voltages like 8 volts (8SN7GTB). Then you have the fact that a 6cg7/6fq7 is basically a 6sn7 in a 9 pin mini tube. Or consider a 7n7 in the locktal base. So if you are flexible there are values to be had. And in some cases, new production tubes, or old eastern block tubes, can be outstanding.
It should go without saying that anything with a 12XXX tube dates itself past the best years (IMHO) of tube audio amps.
Interesting point on the unavailable parts versus price on the vintage tube gear. Altec 1520 comes to mind for me, they are about 3 times as much as a similar Altec 1568 model.
I did not make it clear but I do understand I can build a new amp that would smoke most vintage models, those are in the works but I do have several systems and also like to use some of these EL84 amps for guitar.
Never say never with finding vintage gear, I have found some of the most amazing tube gear in the oddest places. When you get known as the guy who likes that old tube stuff sometimes the gear finds you and then there is Craigslist...
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