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In Reply to: RE: The Whole HK Citation II Craze posted by dls123 on December 08, 2014 at 15:32:22
Hi there,
I have actually met Joe and we have listed to systems together including mine. He actually does know what he is talking about and I can understand how someone could form an opinion on Joe's musings based on his colourful posts. I believe there are reasons for his perspective and his delivery of his perspective that include audiophile experience and other factors.
You've kind of got to cut throught the internet showmanship before you can pass judgement... which is difficult or impossible based on the fact that few , if any inmates, have ever had the opportunity to meet him.
I am text book educated in EE and Joe could certainly show me a thing or two. I am not a desinger but Joe actually could be .
Anyway, I don't particularly agree with his posts about spontaneous combustion of the Citation II but can see how someone could arrive at at his conclusion or opinions based on construction techniques and front end and final stage circuit design and parameters for the Citation II. It is a matter of taste and implementation driving a sonic result that you may or may not like.
At the end of the day if the Citation is the best amp you've ever experienced then you will be happy.. if you have had experience with numerous other amps and arrive at another conclusion then that too is valid and adds to your overall impressions as you develop opinions of character and how amplifiers contribute to the room-speaker interface.
Thanks.
Follow Ups:
I have no doubt that Joe knows a lot. He loves to push buttons with his language. But I rebuilt a number of things he talked about for various customers and listened to them and formed completely different opinions. I really don't care whether he likes what I like that is fine. But he panned a number of things I thought were pretty good. Cannot even remember models anymore, been too long. I just dimissed his rants after I found otherwise a few times.
As for the clarity of the Citation II, well that is pretty much what everyone thinks. You may or may not like that sound. That is also a perfectly valid point of view.
I did not describe the sound of the Citation as exhibiting clarity
but I did imply that we have different opinions.
I would also be surprised if you cared or preferred what Rosen or anyone else exactly cared for. We all have our biases.
I don't believe I inferred that we should believe him at face value rather that he does have experiences that would lead him to a specific opinion on his sonic bias. Real world experience is what matters in the context of many systems and exposure to as much hardware as possible.
I think we are saying the same thing with regard to preference.
Cheers.
Hi
No, the post below described it as clarity so I was responding to two at once. Yes, I agree that everyone has their taste. I just got a little tired of the Rosen rants. His style got a little tedious. What bothered me about it was that he panned a lot of very good amps and then some newbie might read his stuff and dismiss some really good pieces based on Joe trashing them. A citation II is just one example. Anyway, different strokes as they say.
cheers,
Don
IMO he blew it on the VM series of amps with the PP 6AQ5. An incredible amp? Are you kidding me? With the best tubes and coupling caps it is mediocre at best.
As for the Citation II I heard, it was completely rebuilt with different than factory stock coupling capacitors. Never heard a factory stock Citation II thus perhaps that clarity I heard was from the new parts & select tubes. The audio iron was performing.
You will never hear a "stock" Cit II amp. The youngest one in the world will be about 50 years old in 2015, so if the original parts are still in it they are shot anyway. As soon as you replace the 50 year old parts the amp isn't stock anymore.
On the coupling caps - because they are all inside multiple feedback loops once you get to a certain level of cap performance that's all you need to do.
I have never met Joe face to face, but we have exchanged emails, and he can be a lot nicer one-on-one, although he did send me some rants, which actually I appreciated. He and I do disagree on a lot of equipment, but I don't have a problem with that, even when he gets "passionate". My options are base on years of listening, including years of selling audio, where I was listing to equipment all day. I also played the piano and clarinet, my sister played the piano and violin, and my mother played the piano. My father raised me on classical music, and I have been attending concerts since I was a child. I know what real instruments sound like. I know what a lot of equipment sounds like. I am confident about what I like, so it does not bother me if people disagree with me. If anything, I enjoy being challenged, as long as it remains civil. This is one of the things I love about the Asylum!
With Joe. I do pay attention to his criticisms and see if I can hear the problems that he talks about, and see if it bothers me as much (usually not!). However, I tend to pay more attention to what he likes. He was spot on with Quad ESL speakers, B&O cartridges, Dynaco tube amps and Spendor BC-1's (which I own, partly because of his recommendation), to name a few. I strongly suspect he is right about Marantz tube gear, but unfortunately, I have never heard any of it.
I debated with myself, whether I should mention him, but I thought that the original poster wanted a balance of opinions. I was trying to do that. I did not want to stir up a hornet's nest and meant no disrespect to anyone's opposing opinion here, which I do respect. I hope no disrespect was taken.
Dave
Hi Dave,
You are a complete gentleman and no offense whatsoever taken. I just wanted to point out that I disagree with Joe on the sound of a number of pieces.
As an aside, I know you mentioned Quad ESL speakers. I have customer who has a Citation I/II pair that I rebuilt for him who listens to it through a pair of totally restored Quad ESL 57 speakers. He absolutely loves the combination. Either with his DAC or the turntable through the phono section of the Citation I. He said that a fellow came out from the local high end stereo dealer to install his tonearm and then they played it through the above system and the tech was absolutely floored by the sound. He was used to selling some pretty high end modern equipment, but had never heard properly functioning vintage tube gear. As usual, not saying a Citation I/II is the be all end all, but if clearly competes favorably with very expensive modern gear. I am sure the perfectly functioning pair of Quads had something to do with that too!
cheers,
Don
Hi Don,
- I just wanted to point out that I disagree with Joe on the sound of a number of pieces.
Me too! Remember what he thought about an LP12? I have one and I love it! And don't get me started on idler drives! I have a Rek-O-Kut ... I think with Joe, if he didn't love something, he hated it. There was no middle ground. He is not the only person I know like that. He was also averse to anything that was very popular. Still, he also had some excellent insights.
Having worked with Quads (ESL 63's), I have to say that anything that sounds good through them is good! They give no quarter!
Dave
I heard a rebuilt Citation II and it was the most crystal clear amp I ever heard and apparently devoid of any coloration. A relaxed yet dynamic amplifier. I have not heard any recent amps on the posters list, but have heard the Bob Latino ST-120 with upgrades.
One thing about the revealing nature of the Citation II, when you feed it a poor recording with garbage in it, the amp faithfully reproduces all the signal. A poor recording that may be tolerable with some other amps, Will have you reaching for the kill switch with the Citation, but it is not the fault of the amp.
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