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In Reply to: RE: The Whole HK Citation II Craze posted by geezerrocket on December 07, 2014 at 21:31:18
I see we are on to another thread along the same lines....
1. No one ever said the Citation II was the best amp in the world. Just that it is a really good amp.
2. If you can solder you can rebuild one for about $700-725 in parts and you may have to spend money on tubes, that would run $250-300 for all of them.
3. If you paid $1000 for a core - you can get them for less if you watch, you will have roughly a $2000 amp. If you have to pay someone to rebuild it then you will be spending $1200-1400 more unless you find a friend. It really takes 35 hours if you rebuild the whole thing and test it. You certainly don't have to do that. You can just recap it and you will have a nice amp. If you do the whole thing it will be better.
So you will end up with an amp that costs somewhere between $2000 and $3400 or so. When I get a core for a reasonable price and fully rebuild it, repaint the transformers, install modern 5-way gold plated speaker terminals (usually Superior Electric ones), and add a really nice power cord (Belden 16 gauge, shielded), and a CCS you get a killer amp that costs about $3300 out the door with new everything. You can certainly do all of this yourself for less.
At $3400 you have a choice of some really nice amps. If you want a really pretty case, then sure, find a Mac, or a Jadis, or the Bob Carver amp. More power to you. I would read the history of the reliability of Phase Linear and some other companies though. All of these amps will be really nice amps. Which one you will prefer will depend on many things. The Citation will probably be the most neutral sounding of the bunch. That may, or may not be your cup of tea. That doesn't mean it is better or worse than others. That is just the best way to describe the sound. It is incredibly detailed without ever being bright. Some people prefer a warmer sounding amp. Macs for example, sound a bit warmer. It depends on your taste and your system. But what most of us are saying is that the Citation II will hold its own against any amp. Sure, if you want to spend $10,000+ I would hope you get a better amp. At $2000-3500 all you will get is a different amp, not a better one. It may be an amp you like more. That's great. It is all a matter of taste. But, yes, the Citation II, when properly rebuilt, will not be embarrased by any amp at any sane price. Sure, if you have incredibly inefficient speakers in a large room and 65 watts is not enough, then you are not going to be happy with a Citation II, even if it can do 150 watt peaks. It isn't a 400 watt SS amp. But, as was mentioned in the previous thread, there are some classic amps that have stood the test of time because they are really good. A Citation II is one of them. So is a Marantz 8B, and others people can list. A Citation II deserves to be on that list. That's all.
Follow Ups:
Don;
How would you rank the deuce's baby brother the Citation V, in the pantheon of great vintage amps?
Could you characterize its sound?
Thanks.
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
I happen to have one of DSL's Citation V. It is a real good sounding amp and with my 26 tube preamp it is even better(the preamp being part of the sound).
With that said, I never heard a stock V so I can't compare it to anything except what I am hearing now.
Sorry! I meant DLS!
Not sure I want to start another craze:) The V is a great amp. It is about my favorite of the more conventional tube amps and will do about 53-54 watts/ch after being rebuilt properly with the McShane kits. Jim and I have worked out the CCS tail for that one as well. We also have a way to convert the two input tubes to regulated DC filament. These changes along with the power supply upgrade bring the amp into a pretty special class. They image superbly.
I would say that if the imaging on a properly rebuilt Citation V with all the tweaks is a 10, then a Citation II is a 9.5-9.7. That said, the Citation V simply does not have the detail or just plain effortless sound that the II has. At the risk of igniting another thread.... In my system I can hear subtle details and shadings with a Citation II that I have yet to hear from any other amp. I love the Citation V, but it cannot quite do that. A citation V will smoke an ST-70 though, to my ears. Again, you asked for my opinion, so take it as just that. The rest of the amps all sound just a bit veiled to me compared to the citation II. I think Samra and a few others will agree with my take on the Citation II. Mike has every piece of tube gear known to mankind, or at least has had them roll through his house. He uses Citation II amps in his main setup. Others of course will disagree as it should be. The V is among the best of the rest, especially given the price difference. But you have to do some things like add an overall bias adjustment pot so you can dial the whole supply up or down to match a quad of tubes. I do the same in the S5000. They were built to a price point. For a few dollars you can add some features that make them better from a biasing perspective. No, I am not saying the V is quite in the class of the II or the 8B or some of the best Macs or (insert your favorite holy grail amp here) you get it. Just that it is a fantastic amp when rebuilt and tweaked and can be done for far less money than some of the others. You put a good preamp in front of it and don't ask it to drive 2 ohm speakers and you will be very happy, and 50+ watts of 6L6 power sounds very, very good.
Can you give insight as to the type and where to get the Superior Electric binding posts. Thank you in advance
I use the BP-30 posts as I recall. Look on ebay and you may find some older style ones for a good price. The newer ones are available from the usual sources like Allied, but are pricey.
Here is a modern listing :
http://www.newark.com/superior-electric/bp30r/binding-post-30a-8-32-stud-red/dp/35F3006
If you look on ebay you can find surplus ones for $5 or less a piece, but you may need to buy more than you want, and it is hard to buy black and red. Sometimes I use white for the ground with two reds on a channel for 4 and 8 ohm taps. I can buy many so it is ok because I know I will always use them eventually. That allows a good price. The Chinese copies are not as good of course, but for speaker terminals on an amp they are just fine. That is your call. I cut a bunch glass epoxy board plates that are the same size as the originals. Then I mark and drill a pair, taped together. You can mount three posts and it will barely fit. Then just make a terminal for the 16 ohm tap/feedback look connection inside the amp. You may have to nip a little of the inside backing plate on one post with a grinder to keep it from hitting the screw, but not much and it is inside the amp so not visible. It all works well. I attach the transformer leads to the terminals with crimp ring terminals. I solder the leads to the terminals after crimping to make sure they have a great connection to the ring terminal. There are little tricks to making it all work well, but I have worked it out after doing literally dozens of amps that way...
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