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In Reply to: RE: The Monster Amp posted by kendodsdadsdogsdead on November 01, 2014 at 02:55:09
Here's the thing...You were rude, hostile, and you basically insulted another user's intelligence, electronics knowledge, etc.
You made claims that demonstrated a lack of knowledge of the subject, which in and of itself is not a big deal, until you do it with arrogance and hubris. There are times when I might post something that isn't correct. When that happens, and somebody pops up to explain to me why I'm wrong, I don't get my knickers in a twist and start belittling them.
People here are more than happy to explain something to you, and chances are they'll do it politely - until given a plenty good reason not to.
What you claimed was that no piece of vintage gear whatsoever would "care" about which way around you insert the plug. I and others explained why that was wrong. If you wished to refine your statement, and/or actually get to the bottom of something and find the truth, the way to go about it generally does not include being a jerk.
Once you start being a jerk, people understandably lose sight of whatever technical nuance is being discussed, and they focus on the person.
Look, you're new to this forum as am I. If you came here to ask questions, and be helpful to people, then you've started off on the wrong foot. Asking advice while being a jerk is not a winning combination.
Perhaps if instead of going down the "I never said that, what I really said was this, and you jumped down my throat" path, if you just offered a simple apology to the person you belittled, chalked it up to having a bad day, etc. and then re-phrased your question, I think you'll find that people here are quite forgiving just like most places in the world.
If you disagree with somebody, ask for clarification or a second opinion. Don't go about making ad hominem attacks when the answer is either over your head, or pertains to a question you didn't ask.
At any rate, I'm willing to start over if you are, but that begins with acknowledging that you crossed a line, and asking Dave to accept your apology. Nothing he said justifies how you spoke to him.
-SF
Edits: 11/01/14Follow Ups:
You said:- "You made claims that demonstrated a lack of knowledge of the subject, which in and of itself is not a big deal, until you do it with arrogance and hubris. There are times when I might post something that isn't correct. When that happens, and somebody pops up to explain to me why I'm wrong, I don't get my knickers in a twist and start belittling them."
This is more or less a copy of a reply I already gave to Paul: I am a grumpy, old, retired tech guy with arthritis. I don't know a whole lot but I do know a bit about electronics and I can tell you the following. This Sansui (along with millions of other items that have only 2-core mains cables) is double insulated. At no point does either of the two mains cables make any contact with earth/ground either inside or outside the amp. If this happened the person using it would be electrocuted. The 2-core mains cable enters the amp and goes via the On/Off switch straight to the primary of the mains transformer. Sometimes both wires go to the On/Off switch, sometimes only one wire is switched and the other is effectively direct to the transformer. Sometimes there are a few other components before the mains primary - but NEVER is it grounded. The mains voltage inside the amp is 'floating'. It does not care which way round it's connected. It goes into the primary winding of the mains transformer as mains AC volts. Then... out of the secondary winding is produced much lower AC volts, which is then rectified into a usable DC volts.
I do have a diagram for this, and many other vintage amps I've had the pleasure of knowing over the years. I can tell you specifically that the AC on the Sansui EXPORT model (Made for the US and other countries) has the On/Off with only one pole switched. Across the switch is a spark suppressor. The EXPORT model also has 3 non-polarized AC outlets on the rear panel (2 are permanently live, the other is switched). When the amp is switched-on the voltage from one pole is connected directly to one side of the transformer primary. The other pole goes via a fuse (7A for 100/120 volts or 3.5A for 220/240 volts) to the voltage selector switch. The position of the voltage selector switch determines which of the windings on the transformer primary that this other pole is connected to. The transformer secondary windings will then produce 35 volts AC on either side of a zero volts center tap. From there the AC volts is rectified to DC volts and then the nitty-gritty of amplification begins. I also checked out the other variants that Sansui made for Europe. I can tell you that the version supplied for the UK was essentially the same but without the 3 AC outlets on the rear, the voltage was switchable 220-240 volts, the fuse was 2.5A, both poles of the mains were switched and each side had its own separate spark suppressor.
Which way round the mains plug is connected will not make the slightest difference to the operation or safety of the amp or the user. These were made with a molded 2-pin non-polarized mains plug. The manufacturer made no indication of which way round the plug should be inserted because is simply doesn't matter.
The Russian guy originally asked a very simple question: He basically asked which way round the 2-core mains cable should be connected to his mains outlet. The correct answer now - is the same as it was back in the 70's. "No, it doesn't matter which way round it's connected".
This Russian guy was most likely terrified with replies talking about "get it the wrong way and it could be dangerous", "need to understand a schematic to be safe", "smoke", "beer possibly spilled inside", "couldn't have been tested because no mains plug", "strange voltage from another part of the planet", "death capacitors", etc...etc. Well, maybe he's already visited his local Wal-Mart and bought some modern all-in-one crap in a plastic box with lots of flashing lights. If he has it's a real shame because the 517 is a beauty.
I don't hold a grudge so I already accept your apology in advance.
Sorry but you're just plain wrong. This was manufactured (along with zillions of other electronics back in the late 70's) with just a plain old 2 core mains cable and a totally standard non-polarized 2-pin mains plug. The amp didn't need an earth/ground wire because it was double insulated (as many things still are today). There was and is no way to distinguish one core of the cable from the other and the standard non-polarized plug could be connected either way up. Please explain why it didn't matter then - but now it does. Please explain why advice was given to the Russian guy that it could be very dangerous and that he would need to figure out which way round the plug should be connected and for that he might need to be able to obtain and understand the circuit diagram.
Furthermore.... No side of the AC mains is grounded to earth/chassis on a double insulated amp (or double insulated anything) - unless of course the designer wanted to kill anyone who touched it. If the 'toucher' was also touching anything else which happened to be grounded then BAM..! Double insulated is a completely different design to when you have a 3-core mains cord with an earth/ground wire. In this case you may see one side of the AC connected to ground, so then it is important to identify what's conventionally called pos, neg and earth - or hot, cold & ground.
Once more, just to see if you get it yet... double insulated = mains completely isolated from ground/chassis. The 2-cord wire is not marked 'Hot or Cold' and the 2-pin plug can be connected either way - because it doesn't matter. The AC goes via the on/off switch straight to the primary of the mains transformer. Sometimes there are a few more components between the switch and the transformer but NEVER is it grounded.
Some of you seem a little precious about having your wisdom challenged, so... I hereby apologize for being right. Shame you all managed to terrify some Russian guy who has by now probably passed-up on a fine piece of 70's audio equipment, because he believed all the rubbish he read on here.
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