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In Reply to: RE: subwoofer issue posted by Tadlo on August 11, 2014 at 11:49:52
Hi,
Just to give my "0" cents here.
I am not a favorite of subs but they do serve a purpose of that extra "umph" when needed in home theater use. I never liked them for music but can be rewarding if low, low end is what you like and don't care much about accuracy. Many like them but also don't know what issues they cause in music listening.
I am also not a favorite of multiple driver speaker systems. I like one driver to do the full range and maybe a super tweeter with one cap to do the highest frequencies and I do use the word "maybe"! Not much to hear past about 12K anyway or below 80. The rest is just there but really not there. The coherency of a single driver system is much greater but there are limitations.
Subs to me are fun but not for real music listening. I know there are lots of you out there that will disagree and I can't tell someone what they hear or not hear. I just know what I like to hear. If you really want to hear bass through your existing system get an EQ or a receiver(or the equivalent) that has tone controls. To me even though the "purists" won't agree, is the best way to add that extra into the listening.
With that said, HAVE FUN! That's what it's all about.
I forgot to say that if your landlord or tenants hear the bass then it is up too far anyway. It should be a natural blend with the full range speakers you have. Just a hint of extra. Not crash boom bang. If you hear a car door close and it sounds like we just bombed a country then you are way off.
Follow Ups:
I am with you as to a single full range driver system. I used to find them offensive as they would not go as low as speakers of my era but with the new reality of mini-baby speakers that suck in the low end, the first time I reauditioned a set of Lowthers, I was convinced with the change in times and design, the design works and works really well. Most of my music is not any lower than the 50-60 hz range so the full range can get down there and in the upper range the practical realistic cutoff is in the 16khz range and a full range can get there.
Where it shines is in the area where most music happens, the lower high end to upper bass. With no crossovers none of the bad things they tend to introduce is there and point source is fantastic, no worries about all the probelms with time alignment, node cancellation, transition between drivers, etc. Many speaker designers have stated the best speaker would be a single driver covering the entire spectrum but also stated it could not be done and went on to use that argument that a 2-way is better than a 3-way. Using that argument the subwoofer would be more detrimental than an advantage. I am not espousing or supporting their position other than that of a single driver system would be best.
I am currently listening to a set of never used Toshiba boxes that I bought in a thrift and never opened after some 15 years until recently and found each contained a FE103 driver. Decided not to throw them into the send to thrift store pile. Today I finally had a reason to hook them up and playing some jazz on CBC2 through my Sony STR6120. A crazy pairing but it sounds great. I might look into a better cabinet for them as they do sound a might boxed in.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
A powered subwoofer setup is a different presentation than we are used to listening too. It was not meant to replace the bass of the typical woofer we grew up with.The major problem is EVERYONE starts out setting it up incorrectly. Even us seasoned audio-nuts.
The proper way is to have a good set of monitor speakers that can CLEANLY get down to 50Hz or so. For musical use the subwoofer should ONLY fill in those bottom few tones and essentially sure up the bottom end only. The important parts of your music should be coming from your speakers - not your sub!!!!! This is not to play your bass like a typical woofer we grew up with.
Once you do have a proper setup you will see a difference. I'm using mine with a Sherwood S-5000 tube stereo AND a modern NAD C275 power amp. Speakers are Zaph Audio SR-71's - wonderful sounding speakers!
charles
Edits: 08/12/14
I might be wrong, but I think a good subwoofer can help most speakers. A subwoofer takes away part of the work of the mains so they can do their thing better. I cannot locate my subwoofer unless I am very close to it. I use ADS L710's for my mains and a 12" Atlantic tech sub. They sound good alone, but better with that subwoofer..
Exactly, a sub should be non directional. A part of the audio spectrum that is to low to be located by ear. That's the theory anyway.
Also a lot of the problem is/was that a LOT of sub/monitor systems improperly put together. A 4" monitor woofer that clearly can't go down past 100-120Hz. And making almost the entire bass come from a subwoofer.
Even though I'm using a subwoofer I am a firm believer in a sturdy woofer in your monitor speaker. I'm using a 7" (SR-71 speakers) and feel it's fine for my use.
charles
If you are using a 4" monitor woofer, you need twin subs and don't sum the response of the 2 channels. It can sound very good that way.
Dave
I agree. At least until I heard my ADS L710's. They have 2 ea 6 1/2 woofers and I would guess they go down to 50 hz. Amazing.
"Good" being the operative word. When I was selling audio, I would often see people trying to buy cheap subs, that would not keep up with the main speakers that they were trying to match. I would explain why it was a bad idea, but most of the salespeople would just take the money. I think that is why subs got a bad reputation.
Dave
Hi Charles,
I agree completely, and that is how I set up my M&K with my Spendors. If you go over 50Hz, you can hear them base coming from the sub. Most rooms have gain in the low base, so the volume usually should be low. It should not sound base heavy, and you should only hear it when there is real low frequency information on the recording. Most people set them up for effect, not accuracy.
Dave
A proper speaker can get down to the 20-30 hz range with no problems. Sadly, today it seems no one want to design proper speakers anymore and has sucked most into buying baby sized things that are mostly peaked at about 75-100 hz to give sudu bass and are dead in the water by about 50hz.
What amazes me is in reading reviews that mention Heresys are bass shy while trumpeting these infants that are horible thumpers and then dead at about the same cutoff.
Luckily, I have speakers still that will hit the 30hz and below range without the aid of a crutch. Admitedly, my ADS L300 is not one of them but also, it does not seem to be as peaking in the bass as almost all the other mighty mites I have heard.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
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