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Interstage Tranny & others, I'm interested in your views on vintage tube amps & preamps, Luxman in particular.
What I'm looking for is a sweet, refined, open, and transparent sound with no shrillness or hardness for listening to classical music, especially violin. Based on comments on this forum & elsewhere, vintage Luxman tube gear could fit the picture.
I've narrowed it down to:
- preamps CL30, CL32, and CL34
- power amps MQ70, MQ68C, MB3045 (w/ EL34), MQ3600 (w/ EL34)
- integrated amps SQ38FD (MK2) and LX33
Any thoughts on these would be highly appreciated and let me know if you think I missed something.
Sources are mostly vinyl and speakers are Tannoy 15" Monitor Gold, Dynaco A25, and others.
Follow Ups:
Here in the states, the 120V CL-32 was available. There are schematics out there that show a 220/240 input and we all know the Japan units would be 100V. So whatever you find just use the correct voltage.
The MB-3045 is the amp. (Period).
Very well respected and it bested all others in the sound room here in my house. By a large margin. Crown PSA-2, Hafler DH-200, Citation 22, McCormack DNA-1, all solid state some pretty good and respected. But the comparison with the MB-3045s (old big caps, new smaller lytics inside and converted to use the KT88/new issue Tung Sol) and the sound had all the good of any of the others, micro-detail, bass, clarity and on and on. As a matter of fact, Mike just listened when they first started playing they were that much better than the rest.
You have picked some very fine gear and I don't know if you could make a bad selection. The CL-34 being a next model after the CL-32 has much less distortion and a wider frequency response. I don't know if these numbers mean it sounds better. I'd be glad to audition them if someone sends one of each my way.
Good luck with your search.
As a Luxman tragic, I highly commend your leanings.
Here in Oz, we were well served by supply in the 70s thru mid 80s. Basically anything prior to the Alpine takeover in 1984, but also some continuing high end products produced later that weren't exported from Japan.
CL35 series, CL40 and the post takeover CL360/Luxkit A3040 preamps are super nice. As are MQ60/80/50 power amps. Or if you like SET, the MB300 from 1984-5 (at a price).
My impression is that not so very much of this gear reached the US in the day. But with a little patience you can find all these things on yahoo Japan. All 100v, of course, but worth the hunt.
Interesting! Any additional details on the sound of these units you mention would be highly appreciated.
What I have (CL40 or A3040 into MQ50) sound sweet, dynamic and full. They aren't the last word in detail I guess, and those reared on solid state slam would say they're pipe & slippers gear. For their time, they were darned expensive.
My speakers (Ocellia) are probly not so different from your Tannoys. Overall, it's not a sound that leaps out at you so much as draws you in.
My recollection of the MQ60/MQ80 is of a similar house sound. My first "wow" audio moment was a pair of MQ60s into Altec horns in a room the size of a dunny.
We didn't get the MB3045s in Oz, so I've never heard them.
Part of the deal with these things is replaceability of parts - the MQ50 scores well here using 6550s, 6AQ8s, 12AU7As. Some of the tubes used in the others aren't so easy to find.
I can't yet comment on the MB300s (about which you'll find virtually nothing on the web - I've read that only 250 pair were made) pending tube replacement ...
General info at the link below and also on the vintage knob.
Hi, Plato65. CL-34 would be my pick to rebuild. 4-12AX7 4-12AU7.
Start with power supply caps. This model was US imported. Voltage
in is no problem. I suggest you look at Conrad-Johnson in the pre-amp
department. You might not be able to get the amp back in its enclosure
due to C sizes. I would not at this time select MQ68c. It takes JP output
tubes that have been scarce for 3 decades. There are Sino copies that are
horrible. I am working on using a triode wired sweep tube as replacement but it will still require an outboard power supply as the original tubes
50-CA10 have a 50 volt filament! The MB-3045 is a pure gem. Again you must rebuild the power supply. It requires caps rated to 550 surge. The first is a dual, second triple, and so on. B+ is 480. Do not use just
a 500V rated C here. Tim de P. was inspired by the McIntosh circuit but
he goes beyond. Original output tubes, 8045G, are also extinct. There
are copies, Sino copies, I would suggest avoiding. I am looking to use
KT-120 instead of 6550/KT-88. These amps are so good as to shame other
P-P designs. The output transformers are excellent. Quadfilar wound primaries. The amp chassis is only 1" deep so be prepared to get creative
as far as fitting things is concerned. You can run them with EL34 but
will produce much less power than 6550/KT-88. PM me if you want more
detailed info. I note you do not receive AA mail.
I recommend the CL-32 but it's a 100VAC in device; it needs a Variac stateside. It could be the one of the most dynamic, detailed yet sweet preamps. The CL-32 is a bit less sweet; but very worthy. I have not heard the CL-34 but isn't it a hybrid line stage ?
Lux amps can be very nice. Their 3045 was inspired by the McIntosh line. Lux trannies are extremely wide bandwidth. Sometimes, extreme bandwidth is not heard as sweet. Since your reference instrument is violin, upper high frequency bandwidth may not be needed. In fact, for sweetness, you actually might prefer lower bandwidth amps. For example, I know of some serious classical record collectors that insist their early 1930s Thordarson 2A3 amps are their end all be all. Since the trannies in those have little above 12KHz, combined with "bright" speakers, the result can be extremely charming. My own reference PP45 amps do not have the widest bandwidth opt trannies. When wider bandwidth opt trannies were used, these amps sounded more analytical; sounding less sweet and endearing than with simply "good" trannies. Again, better specs of a device do not always mean better sound.
Have you heard any PP triode amps with little or no feedback ? Chances are that after you hear them on your reference speakers, you might never want feedback in any amps again. Feedback EQ in preamps is a necessity for vintage discs, IMHO; but power amps tend to sound most transparent and "open" with little or no feedback...Of course, YMMV (Your mileage may vary).
Do you mean CL-30 is dynamic and CL-32 very worthy, or the other way? CL-34 was the next version of CL-32 with tone controls instead of the tilt feature and 8 tubes instead of 7.
Your thoughts on bandwidth & feedback have me thinking. I have a 300B SET amp that I really like, but am now looking for an amp for a different set-up. PP triode amps could be interesting.
What speakers do these collectors like with their Thordarson amps?
One collector chose Altec Voice Of The Theater with 802 tweets or his Altec 755A. Both of his speakers are definitely on the "bright" side...The other collector uses field coil woofers and various tweets at different times.
If you like the imagery/soundstage and naturalness of SET amps, you would certainly love the PP triode amps that use an interstage tranny to split the phase plus no neg feedback PP monoblocks. I use my moniker because interstage trannies have made such a difference to the sound in my systems. I get true holographic imagery, with a "reach in and touch the musicians" sensation along with speed and dynamics that are very impressive and very enjoyable. Finding dual mono amps like this that match will not be an easy search. I am still searching for certain interstage trannies that match some of my singles for almost three decades; in order to build more dual mono amps...
The amps I use have competed and won over pairs of Sun Radio CR-10, Brook 10 and 30 Watters, Thordarson 30 Watters, Peerless A-100 as well as other homebrews; playing through my Altec 16 Ohm Valencias. I used Brook 22 PP2A3 10W integrateds as my reference until I began rolling my own amps in the mid 1980s. At that time, my amp topology was 6J5 to UTC LS-19 to PP cathode biased 2A3s (or 6A3s, VT-52s, 6B4s...)to UTC LS-57 opt iron. These days, my topology is a bit more complicated with a DHT input tube (like 26 or 30) to cathode biased Globe 45, 1:1 IT coupled to PP Globe 45s in fixed bias to various opt iron. Even compared to my 845 SET amp, plus other homebrew SET amps I have built, I prefer the PP Triode amps.
If you must stay with feedback equipped amps, might I suggest you audition some EL84 amps ? Even Single Ended EL84s should have enough power to produce magic with your Tannoys or Dynacos...ENJOY !
Thanks! Very interesting. I'm going to leave out DIY amps at this point, so I need to go hunting for some of the other models you mentioned.
How do you like the Altec Valencias? I've been very curious about them, but have held back due to concerns that they might sound hard on violins.
Also, one pre+power combo or an integrated would be used in a home office with small speakers. Any recommendations for small units & speakers?
when I first read the original post, I thought of recommending PP DHT's
my speakers are just a bit less efficient than the Tannoy Monitor Gold, and I do just fine for classical with DIY PP 6B4G's (6.3v filament, octal base version of the 2A3). I would like a bit more power for rock, so I'm building PP 300b's - not that I don't like my amps, but because I'm in the mood to build...
My amps are interstage coupled, fixed bias, choke input power supply, no feedback. I have taken them to club meetings, they walk all over SE 300b amps on 93-95 efficient speakers. They give up very little "magic" to SE's, but give plenty of tight, controlled bass.
If you like large scale music (symphonic, big band) on moderately efficient speakers, zero feedback PP DHT's are an excellent choice.
Thanks! If we leave out DIY amps at this point, could you suggest some vintage models? Which speakers do you use, btw?
My speakers are very loosely based on JBL L300's. 93dB efficiency. BUT, I use Edgarhorn "salad bowl" tractrix horns on the 2420 driver. For me, the tractrix horns get it right from a "tonality" perspective; no shout, no stridency, no honk. The 136a woofers go deep with authority (at the price of some efficiency).
Vintage PP DHT's are tough; not that many out there. The Brook amps are highly regarded but recently have gone for stupid "collector" money, and you would need a good tech to go through it. I think Cary made (makes?) a PP 2A3. You might want to investigate getting a custom builder to make you an amp. Something like the Seth PP 2A3.
- "Something like the Seth PP 2A3."
I thought that 6C45's were pretty scarce nowadays.
Dave
Sovteks seem to be out there for $30 or so. The Seth was an example for suggestion, more or less.
I always use 5842/417A for my builds, though it is getting pricey too (especially non-Raytheon).
My mistake. When I did a search yesterday, all I saw was out of stock. I see The Tube Store and others have them.
Dave
I've had a number of other output tube types and I do have to say - those EL84's do grab me! That is not to say the others DO have excellent qualities.
I would say if you need power go up to a EL34. Otherwise for pure listening enjoyment - the 84 is a sweeeeeeeeettttt tube!
charles
!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
The SET's are nice. I always preferred a more traditional tube. The have more humph were it counts.
charles
I have the Luxman MB3045's, there is no better Amp in my opinion.
they had a rep for unreliability...
Very good to hear. What tubes do you use in it?
I also listen to a LOT of classical. Especially violin concertos, etc...
What you do what is some thing with a good clean top end. BUTTTTTT - what you also need is something with a really good, strong upper bass. A lot of the violin magic is of course in the treble. But the beauty is in that lower tone area that sits just below the midrange. NO bass, but lowerer mid.
Luxmans good. So you are off to a good start. Have you considered tubes?? Great for classical. I use a Sherwood and can't imagine changing.
Also what speakers are you running?
enjoy
charles
I really should stop taking that cold medicine????
Does Luxman offer any tubed integrated amp?
ALso don't limit yourself to Luxman.
ALso factor in a complete rebuild. It is WELLLLLL worth it!!!!
charles
Thanks! I agree that low mids are also important, but when they're wrong, they rarely irritate or cause fatigue the same way that strident upper mids and lower treble do. Hence the emphasis on the refined highs.
Definitely tubes. The speakers are Tannoy 15" Monitor Gold, Dynaco A25, and others.
Spend the time and money on a nice tube setup. You don't need big wattage if you are listening to classical. Tubes and classical just seem to be a perfect match.
My preferred classical is my Sherwood S-5000. Fully rebuilt by Mike Samra.
Example: A sherwood runs about $500 or so. And a full rebuild should run you about $500-600, depending on what needs to be done. After Mike finishs you will be VERYYYYYY happy. And it will last longer than you. I am a big fan of vintage SS. But honestly, most of that stuff is on it's last legs. And most likely will need constant attention in years to come.
But post freely on what's available and fits your needs. Take your time and look. Don't rush!!!! it will pay off in the end when you are sitting back and listening to your Sherwood, Eico, etc....
charles
Oh, for the good old days. I got my Sherwood S5000II and S3000IV thrown in free by the seller when I bought my Bozak 302a and matching utility cabinet because the seller had no bites after advertising them for $50 for the pair along with a Miracord 10H.
Only a few of years ago these were still in the $100 dollar each range for nice units.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
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