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In Reply to: RE: Have you considered listening to the music? nt posted by briggs on May 24, 2014 at 20:00:34
Yep. Actually that is what I have done for more than 4 decades mostly with a fixed main system that included McIntosh, KLH Nines and Bozak Symphonys.
My challenge has been to find a smaller system suitable for the future in a much smaller housing arrangement as I and my wife are contemplating selling the house. No room for 1200 sq' dedicated listening rooms any longer. I had a good run.
My criteria was to find something, smaller that gave as much listening pleasure as my big rig or as close as possible. Considering where I was and my background it is a tall order.
A further limitation was I wanted to if possible make it out of my remaining collection, most of which is decent. My standard of measure was the one irreplaceable unit, my Koss e'stats that have the same sound as the KLH Nines as the elements in each were designed by Artist Janszen.
This project has been on and off for a couple of years as I have been ill and for periods not strong enough to lift even a pair of Minimum 7s. As I worked through the piles, I narrowed it done to a fairly small list of items while holding others in case of 2nd thoughts. Some others were no brainers to give up due to size. Others just did not make the cuts over time. I took sometimes months evaluating a combination and writing results.
Units some might think might make the final cut included speakers such as the KLH Five, Symphonys and smaller 302as, original Advents and The Smaller Advents, Wharfedale and even JansZens and others. Finally contenders are Klipsch Heresy IIs, a surprise for me and a set of speakers I bought new in 1980, the ADS L300s. Two speakers with altogether different voicing.
Of my turntables, the one I have had the longest was the obvious as it does most things right and is the smallest.
The electronics have to mate with the speakers and as the speakers were evaluated different units came into the final mix but as I narrowed the speakers down the aisle number of the amps, etc. Also have been sidelined. Having decided on these last 2 speakers now has eliminated all but a few units. An advantage of the speakers, especially the Klipsch is low power is all that is needed. The ADS while less efficient are 4 ohms so also can work well with a low powered amp. This lead me back to a couple of units I had in that 2nd thought pile. Previously I had sidelined all the Philips units but as I now put the small Sony back into the test mix, likewise I did the same for the small Philips. They both met my criteria with the Philips the better if the ADS was the final speaker chosen while the Sony was the better with the Klipsch. But I noticed something with the Philips on the Heresy worth exploring. The upper register of the Klipsch started to match the Koss phones.
As you may know while dynamic speakers can have between 5-10% distortion, e'stats and horns (until over driven) typically have about .5%. Having had stats and full range stats most of listening life has made me sensitive this problem with dynamic drivers and the doppler effect of long excursion drivers.
I subbed in the Sony STR6120 and while relatively a big improvement over the smaller Sony while also doing better with the ADS, the small Philips was its equal on the ADS. I became curious enough to pull the largest of the Philips receivers, bypassing the similarly physically sized unit; in the past I had the 797 go against the big Sony and never could decide which I liked better. I have no notes of having use either with the Heresys or ADS as neither needs the 60 watts. First up was the Koss to acquaint my ears and then switched to the Heresys and then back and forth. The upper registers of each are quite close in many ways, mids less so but the Heresys still did well. Soundstage is very good and instruments placement identifiable. The typical Heresy harshness is not present. The ADS gave everything they did with the smaller Philips but much better. The 797 bested the STR6120 on these 2 speakers. So of the list are all the Sonys and Yamaha system. I will put up the Sherwood system one last time but, I think it has met its match as the amp just does not present the soundstage and instrument placement as well though it does subjectively give a bit more perceived bass on the Heresys.
I am now at a point where though the system because of the receiver is not as small as I would like I can focus on just the speakers. Before the ADS due to size was the favored but as I have compromised the size of the electronics it is easier to compromise with the speakers if need be.
One thing I discovered is it is easier to move up the sound quality ladder than move down it. It has been an exercise I have not done in some decades as I simply had a system and just listened to the music as you suggest. This journey I have not done since I was in my early 20s when I was so nutty I owned a cabinet of stereo stores so I could have access to all the toys.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
Follow Ups:
Welcome to Downsize World! Finding the right small speaker is certainly a challenge. I’m on my fourth pair (Proac Tablette Signature 8). But it sounds like you have something in the L300.
I know the feeling of wanting things settled, but looking back on all the systems I’ve been through I know that it’s folly. I don’t know if you will settle until listening in the actual room you intend to use. It makes such a difference, especially going smaller from larger.
Brian, I think your quest must be fun! I think you're really wealthy with all the stuff you can try. I really envy you the Nines. A dream of mine.
Since you seem to value soundstage, have you thought about some Audio Physic speakers?
Specifically the first series Step monitors? An amazing stand mount when set up correctly! Like your 300s, will absolutely disappear! Clean, fast, sharp. Not to mean etched or harsh.
Surprising and satisfying amount of low end. I augment with a REL Strata II..
I think you would at least like the Steps for their stage. 4ohm, nominal but I have been told not to use with my Scott 299 because of their widely fluctuating impedance curve.
Just thought smaller space smaller speakers, although they do need room around them to perform their best.
Sorry to ramble.
Best,
Dave
I am trying to do this using pieces already on hand. The L300s and Heresys as well as most speakers I have with the right electronics have good to very good soundstage. I am actually fight the issue of imaging more though I do not emphasize it other than mention location of instruments. Having come from huge speakers with their wall of sound and for most poor imaging to smaller speakers that can image better, I am still trying to get that balance as well as the balance between orchestra cohesiveness and hearing each individual musician which can detract from the whole.
I am a bit odd in that these matter more to me than slight coloration, .005 vs. 2 the, etc. I am used to going to live acoustic performances and sitting in various hall, each introducing sound variations including coloration as well as imaging. So, if a violin sounds slightly less or more wooden between amps it does not make me jump up and down because I do not know what it actually sounded like sitting at the live performance in a particular hall.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
about compact two ways with closely mounted drivers. I have a couple pair of Polk LSi7s that are neutrally voiced, nicely coherent and box-free sounding like the classic ADS design.
I also went through a nutty stage in my twenties, and worked in the business for a few years until a young woman straightened me out. I brought Mac and Bozak gear into a marriage that is now in its fiftieth year. I could not have pulled it off with Symphonies or KLH Nines -- also favorites of mine at the time.
I hope you enjoyed writing this up as much as I enjoyed reading it. Considering your history, I am surprised that you are going to the wire with Heresies.
.
The Heresys somewhat surprised me, also. It can sound good with the right electronics and has the advantage of opening up nicely at low volume levels that is an advantage in an apartment. At levels it seems many others love playing them at they are irritating screeched. My average listening levels permits polite discussion and slightly louder. Years ago, I learned to keep the average levels down so the dynamics do not start compressing that can start to happen well before the advertise power rating is reached.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
Those little suckers are ridiculously good within their frequency and dynamic limitations, and will benefit from the best amplification you can muster. In 1972-ish I sold hifi, and we could put the (Braun) L-300s up against pretty much anything; their midrange truth always came through.
I have a pair driven by an old BGW 100B. They still make me smile, and occasionally give goosebumps. BGW amps, btw, are still very good if recapped, and can often be had for a song. Many are still in use in some pretty great studios, and for good reason.
The only receiver I was ever really impressed with was the Mac 4100. Donno if it would hold up today, but I suspect it might. I had lots of that beautiful 70's Sony gear, but none of it sounded that good.
And Heresy's can sing with good tube amps. I used Mac 75s, Quicksilvers, various modded Dynas, and VTL Compact 100s - all good. No, you don't need that power, but you do need a good bottom end, as the Heresys don't do much down there and you don't want to take away any more.
WW
"A man need merely light the filaments of his receiving set and the world's greatest artists will perform for him." Alfred N. Goldsmith, RCA, 1922
I bought the L300s new at a time I could have just about any speaker then on the market and at the time I was the controller of a speaker company located in NH. As an employee I had the right to a pair of any model it produced at no cost but opted out and bought the L300s.
At the time I had Cornwalls, KLH Nines, JansZen Z824HPs and a number of other decent speakers in the house so buying the baby ADS really showed how impressed I.was with them. I ran them with a number of amps initially including a Mc MC250, MA5100, MA6100, ARC Dual 51, SAE MK I amongst them. I later paired them with the Sony STR6065 in the office.
While those other speakers long ago left the house, the L300s I have never considered selling off and will keep them even if I decide the Heresys will be the final choice.
The Heresys are a different bag and I have a hate/love relationship with them. They are so amp sensitive it hurts. I think you could go a lifetime of buying amps and never quite get them just right. OTOH, when you can match them and dial them in they can really make nice sound at low to reasonable levels. My Mc system was a washout. The HK 630 a bit better but, not good enough to make me understand why Klipsch lovers praise this series as being so good with them. The power amp section standalone with a good preamp is quite good, though. Especially fond of the AVA SuperPAS3x. Some amps like the ARC D75/76 series got the mid to highend near perfect but for some reason killed any bass. I even tried a double set bridged to no avail. The DYNA SCA35 at 10% of the power of the bridged ARCs did very nicely. The 2 Philips receivers seem to marry the sound of the ARCs and DYNA producing that mid to high range very well without emasculating the bass. The Sony adds a veil denying it that ability to provide the fine detail the speakers can produce. This can be good though in my case. With the Sony, I hear the entire orchestra as an integrated performance as you would at a live performance. With the Philips the Klipsch sound is allowed to shine through but, the cohesiveness of the orchestra is less and I tend to get drawn to the individual instruments and lose sight of the performance as a whole. That is my current dilemma I am dealing with.
The easy way out, of course, would be to stay with the small Philips and ADS speakers but, not ready to give up on the Heresys just yet; I have only owned them since 1988.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
Brian,
One of the more interesting threads in years. It is also reminiscent of my own situation. Slightly over 20 years ago we moved to a condominium. And although it is 2200 sq. ft. on one floor; my "man cave" is relatively small. In the house, I had a good sized, sound treated room in the basement with a pair of Infinity RS2.5's in an active bi-amped set up with the Infinity electronic crossover. Lovely system; but no way was that going to work in the condo. So, in the condo; speakers larger than Advents are not suitable.
Now, I like to tinker, and have been trying this and that for years, aided by a 61 band (1/6 octave) RTA and calibrated microphone. The end result is a pair of original Advent replica cabinets with original Advent (Masonite ring)woofers, and a pair of New Advent tweeters with a very basic crossover. Electronics are all Rotel with an RB1050 dual mono power amp, RTC-940 tuner-preamp, and an RCD-971 CD player. Not tiny, and no phono; but the floors here are like trampolines, so a turntable would be difficult to work with, and there's no space for my 800 LP's - so it's all CD's now. The end result is the pair of Advent cabinets on 15" stands, the Rotel stack, and about 500 CD's.
OK, there has to be a point here. One thing I found, is that what worked in my basement (post Infinity) didn't sound right in my den. The room size and acoustic had a profound effect on my perceptions. I had planned on using a pair of JBL L-110's in the den, along with an Adcom power amp and tuner preamp and an Onkyo CD player based on auditioning in my basement before we moved. Wrong! It all sounded terrible in the condo. That set me off on a 19 year odyssey that was never quite right. At least not until I went back to basics and decided to try a modern emulation of the A25 - leading me to the present Advent hybrids. However, they are tailored specifically to the room and electronics. They measure very well in my room; but have not been tried elsewhere.
I did note with interest, your comments on one of your amps having less integration and giving a different sound stage, so you listened to the individual instruments and not to the orchestra as a whole. One of my amps is an NAD C350 integrated amp. Compared to the Rotel gear, it has a very similar sound; but the imaging is very different, sounding like a mono system with no width - everything is in the center. I measured channel separation in the mid-band at 23 dB in the preamp. It gets lower at higher frequencies. A later NAD C320BEE gives a very good soundstage and is very much like the Rotel.
Best of luck with your downsizing.
Jerry
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