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I'm still banned on Cable Asylum but since this is "Tweaks/DIY" I don't guess this would be too out of place here.On another message board in a discussion about cables and insulation, the subject turned to using less conventional organic insulation. During the course of which someone asked about insulating wire with paper.
Off the top of my head I couldn't think of a practical way to insulate an individual wire with paper, but remembering some DIY cables made by sandwiching a parallel run of wires between clear pastic packing tape, I suggested doing the same using gummed kraft paper packing tape. The kind you have to wet.
After giving that concept a bit more thought, I had an idea for a bit different approach.
So I gathered up some bare, 24 gauge solid core copper wire, a roll of kraft wrapping paper, a three foot steel straightedge, a thin 12 inch steel ruler, a technical pencil, an X-Acto knife, a handheld paper hole punch, and an Avery GlueStic.
A couple hours later I ended up with this:
Keep in mind that this is just a rather crude proof of concept attempt so I didn't bother trying to optimize things such as wire spacing. The wire spacing here is 3/4" which would make it ideal for mating to binding posts, but because there is bare wire exposed which could result in a short, I wouldn't recommend using this as speaker cable except perhaps for a low power amp with a current limited output.
The same caveat holds true for some line level components.
Basically, if you have any component that'll go tits up if its output is shorted, "DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME." You've been warned. Proceed at your own risk.
The experience of building this proof of concept allowed me to realize that the wire spacing could be brought down to something more on the order of 1/4" and the paper is though enough that the notches on the side could be a bit more closely spaced reducing the paper's involvement with the wire a bit more.
Here's how I constructed it:
First I cut a three foot strip of paper 1-1/4" wide using the straightedge and X-Acto knife.
Then I made two marks, one at each end of the strip 1/4" in from the edge on both sides.
I lined the straighedge up with the marks on one side of the strip and using the thin metal ruler, slid it under the strip and tilted it upward, rather like a sheet metal press brake. The same was repeated on the other side of the strip.
Using my fingers, I carefully started working the partially folded section over into a complete fold, being careful to make sure the crease was at the 1/4" mark.
Once I got them both folded over, I laid the strip down flat and burnished the creases with the handle of the X-Acto knife.
Next I drew a reference line down the middle of each 1/4" fold and then marked that off with tick marks every 3/8". Using these as a guide, I took the paper punch and punched out the notches on the edges, centering the punch on the tick marks and lining up the outside of the punch with the line.
It didn't seem too practical to try and glue the folds down over the wire along the entire length at one time so at every sixth notch I cut the paper between the outer edge of the strip and the hole and did it in steps.
I unfolded one section, carefully applied the glue from the GlueStic from the fold to the outside edge of the strip, lined the wire up with the fold and carefully folded the flap over the wire and gently pressed it down.
Then I used my fingernail to schooch the wire snugly into the fold and make sure the paper was glued down right up to the edge of the wire.
This was repeated for the remaining sections, allowing the glue to dry for a minute or two on the previous section before moving on to the next section.
Once all the sections were completed, I decided to remove more paper by punching holes down the center, using the inside seams as a guide.
Here's a shot of the flip side of the cable showing the construction in a bit more detail:
The cable's about two hours old and I've been giving it a bit of manhandling. It bends and flexes quite well. Rather like that decorative ribbon that has the wires running down each side. A couple of the butt joints where the sections come together have popped up a bit because I didn't get enough glue on 'em but are easily fixed with a little dab of glue.
So there ya go.
Paper cables. :)
se
Follow Ups:
I have tried this. I used CFAC Alphacore inductor and cut to thin cables (1 mm wide). Making interconnect, I wraped those 2 thin cables with paper sticky tape. Result was satisfied but wasn't as good as Jon Risch's receipt double run 89259 Belden. Somehow I thought it was mainly from different internal core and insulated. IMO, paper doesn't smooth the sound than teflon tube or plumber tape. Not worse but just different sonic.
I have tried this. I used CFAC Alphacore inductor and cut to thin cables (1 mm wide). Making interconnect, I wraped those 2 thin cables with paper sticky tape. Result was satisfied but wasn't as good as Jon Risch's receipt double run 89259 Belden. Somehow I thought it was mainly from different internal core and insulated. IMO, paper doesn't smooth the sound than teflon tube or plumber tape. Not worse but just different sonic.Hey, whatever works. At least you're trying a variety of things and deciding for yourself what sounds best to you, something which I heartily endorse, though Jon believes this is anarchy and would like to put a stop to it.
The paper cables here are just a couple of possible ways of utilizing more natural materials. Many people have come to find that they don't like Teflon and have preferred other materials including more natural materials such as paper and cotton.
The designs I offer here are just a couple of "serving suggestions" for those who would like to explore some of those alternatives for themselves and perhaps find them preferable.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
se
Jon Risch
nt
Take a single layer flat strip of the paper and fold it accordian style lengthwise.Secure/compress the folded piece and punch two single holes through it (one near the middle of each "open" side) using a small punch or awl.
While the piece is still flat/compressed thread a good length of wire through each hole. Once this is done expand the accorian fold to the desired length.
This should maintain separation between the wire runs while touching the wire even less than your first model/example. It's also much easier to consruct.
Take a single layer flat strip of the paper and fold it accordian style lengthwise.
Secure/compress the folded piece and punch two single holes through it (one near the middle of each "open" side) using a small punch or awl.While the piece is still flat/compressed thread a good length of wire through each hole. Once this is done expand the accorian fold to the desired length.
This should maintain separation between the wire runs while touching the wire even less than your first model/example. It's also much easier to consruct.
Yes. Jonathan Carr suggested this over on diyAudio.com where I also posted the design.
It would indeed result in less contact between the paper and the wire. But it would also result in increased involvement of the paper with the electric field.
So if less contact is the goal, the accordian would be the better approach.
se
nr
It'll be a while yet before I finally get a decent system up and running. Unless Terry would like to send me a pair of I-BENs to play with. :)But hey, they're so cheap and easy to make it shouldn't be too much hassle to just roll a pair yourself and give 'em a try. How they sound to you is much more important than how they might sound to me.
se
...why foresake the paper? Why go through so much effort to get it as out of the picture as possible? Why not embrace the paper?Looking at it from a more eastern perspective, harmony doesn't come about through single-minded obsession with a singular element, but rather through a balancing of complimentary elements. Yin and Yang.
With that in mind, I took some nice lokta bark paper, handmade in Nepal, some rice starch bookbinder's paste and whipped this out:
Smells wonderful too. A bit like hemp. :)
se
......the Even Steven. :~>
......the Even Steven. :~>Hehehe. I dunno about that one. Only time I'm called "Steven" is when I'm in trouble. :)
How 'bout I rip off a film title and call it "The Tao of Steve"? :)
se
How about you call it the "Dow of Steve", then you can get sued as well.
How about you call it the "Dow of Steve", then you can get sued as well.Hey, now that'd certainly add another dimension to it!
I'll do that just as soon as I wire Phil a retainer. :)
se
Should be just the job to finish them.
C37 anyone?Brian.
Why not dip the paper in oil while your at it...:)Coolin
Why not dip the paper in oil while your at it...:)Mmmmm. Yes. Some olive oil with a bit of balsamic vinegar. Sounds tasty! :)
se
An adventurous trial indeed! Please tell us how it sound in case you have any follow-up experiment in future when you hook up in your systems.My concerns are that paper may easily absorb moisture especially in a high humidity enviroment and may cause 'short'. Also if the paper cables touch any metal (because they are bare and no shielding), it may also cause problem. Anyways, it is fun to do your experiment!
An adventurous trial indeed! Please tell us how it sound in case you have any follow-up experiment in future when you hook up in your systems.Sure. Though how it may sound to me won't necessarily tell you how it'll sound to you. No substituting for one's own experience.
My concerns are that paper may easily absorb moisture especially in a high humidity enviroment and may cause 'short'.
Ok, let's test that with a worse than worst case scenario.
I took a strip of kraft paper about 1/4" wide and 1/2" long. I soaked it for 5 minutes in a brine solution made using 1 tablespoon of salt dissolved in 6 tablespoons of water.
I took a 5 volt power supply and with a 100 ohm series resistor, used the strip of soaked kraft paper to complete the circuit using aligator clips at each end of the strip with their tips about 1/4" apart.
I turned on the supply and measured 0.08 volts across the 100 ohm resistor. That comes to 0.0008 amps of current. The voltage drop across the paper would then be 5 - 0.08 or 4.92 volts, giving the strip an equivalent resistance of 4.92/0.0008 or 6,150 ohms.
So, I don't think that'll be a problem.
Also if the paper cables touch any metal (because they are bare and no shielding), it may also cause problem.
Yes. Hence my warnings in my original post.
Anyways, it is fun to do your experiment!
Thanks. Now all I have to do is finish getting a new system up and running. :)
se
Interesing. Looks like 300 or 450 ohm ladder-line (like ordinary flat tv cable only with cut-outs in the polyethylene) Remember there was a premium 300 ohm antenna wire that was round and had some sort of air/foam between the wires. Wonder if tygon would be any good for this... it certainly is strong!
Interesing. Looks like 300 or 450 ohm ladder-line (like ordinary flat tv cable only with cut-outs in the polyethylene)Yeah, I've seen that before. Gets rid of some excess material between the conductors, but the conductors are still completely covered.
Remember there was a premium 300 ohm antenna wire that was round and had some sort of air/foam between the wires.
Yeah. Hated that stuff. Premium it might have been, but man it was stiff!
Wonder if tygon would be any good for this... it certainly is strong!
Tygon? Just checked out their website and it seems to be tubing. Sure you're not thinking of Tyvek, that spun polyolefin paper?
se
Right you are... I was looking at tygon tubing and got my ty's tangled. Not sure how polyolefin compares to cellulose as a dielectric though.Yes there are other kinds of ladder line though... some have bare wires that are held by ceramic or plastic spacers (particularly one made or DIY'd for transmitting). Polystyrene would make good spacers... dielectric loss is even lower than teflon, but it is limited to pretty low temperatures.
Right you are... I was looking at tygon tubing and got my ty's tangled.Hehehe. Hate when that happens. :)
Not sure how polyolefin compares to cellulose as a dielectric though.
Yes there are other kinds of ladder line though... some have bare wires that are held by ceramic or plastic spacers (particularly one made or DIY'd for transmitting). Polystyrene would make good spacers... dielectric loss is even lower than teflon, but it is limited to pretty low temperatures.
Yeah. Though I don't obsess much about objective perfection. I used to when I first got into this hobby and wouldn't even consider trying certain things because of it. I came to have a change in attitude and began trying some of those things I wouldn't have considered and ended up discovering some pleasant surprises.
Some disappointments as well, but more than enough surprises that I don't dismiss anything just because it's not as objectively perfect as something else. And if something doesn't work well for me in a certain application, I'll still give it a try in other applications.
Half the fun is getting there as they say. :)
se
Or-E-gummy. Wesstern Electric brand solid core NOS wire I have seen is paper bonded to single conductors chassis wire. Great design.TC
Or-E-gummy. Wesstern Electric brand solid core NOS wire I have seen is paper bonded to single conductors chassis wire. Great design.Yeah, I've seen some stuff in the past that had what appeared to be a paper serve wrapping on it. It seemed to be more of a tissue type paper. I tried doing a serve with some of the kraft paper I have on hand but that wasn't happenin'. :)
I've got some white tissue paper here and I might cut some strips from it later and see if that goes any better. But the goal with the paper cables here was to try and reduce the involvement of the paper as much as possible. The paper acts not so much as insulation, but as a structural element keeping the wires spaced.
This morning I cobbled together something more suitable for an interconnect. The spacing is just 5/16". They're made in the same fashion, but I started with a 7/8" wide strip instead of the 1-1/4" strip I did the proof of concept with and I spaced the notches a bit closer together.
And here's the flip side, showing how the one flap overlaps the other:
se
