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My two favorite tweaks, especially cheap tweaks, are "stones and balls". I'll explain.First, "stones". More particularly, large, heavy stone slabs. I place large marble slabs, weighing approximately 300 pounds, under each of my Martin-Logan electrostatic loudspeakers. If you've ever tried to floor-couple a light-weight speaker, like a ribbon or an electrostatic, you soon realize that no spike will do the trick with a carpeted floor. The answer lies in these slabs.
I deal in microscopes and laser systems and stone "tables" are used all the time for mass-loading. I managed to get my hands on a pair of these tables for dirt cheap at an IBM auction. I used the tops under my speakers. Ah, the change in clarity and bass extension was not subtle. In fact, it was like I had doubled my amp power and doubled my woofer size. Yet, the increase in clarity was the most amazing thing. As these were relatively flat slabs, they only raised the listening height 3" which is well within the "error range" of a M-L.
Since that time, I've experimented with mini-monitors, "maggies", other speakers whose inherent mass just precludes them from effectively coupling to the floor. The results have all been the same. You still you use spikes, but you spike to the slabs, not the floor. The slabs are heavy enough to couple to the floor without benefit of spikes.
Now, so you can't get ahold of microscope stands or optical tables? No biggie. Get "seconds" from your local mortuary stone mason - these go for dirt cheap if there was an error in the insscription (turn that side down). Also, can buy large slabs of flagstone out here in the west relatively cheap. Worst case, build a low, flat "form" out of wood and pour one yourself out of concrete. That works really great.
Now, onto "Balls". Again, one I learned from my work with high power microscopes and laser systems. Now folks, if you think vibration and resonance screws up audio, you haven't seen nuttin' yet. It REALLY screws up high power microscopy and precision laser work. For years we used to put microscopes under tennis balls - an old solution well-known for decades.
But something my dealer and scientist buddies couldn't believe was when I walked into an installation with a pocketfull of "superballs" purchased for a quarter a piece from a dime-store gumball machine. The more we worked with these "balls" under microscopes and lasers, the more we came to appreciate that their ability to "convert" energy into a high bounce to delight the kids was also an incredible ability to dampen and dissipate vibration and resonance.
I've used these under power amps (this is where they work so good it's sick) as well as source components. The best way is to "hard-couple" the component via spikes or whatever to a metal, wood, or ceramic "slab" then "float" the slab with super balls. Should have found a way to patent this - now there are countless microscopes all over the world sitting on plexiglass "slabs" de-coupled from the table with superballs.
Now, with a spherical "ball", it can be a bit tricky mounting it. I have found that a good, tough, "marine-grade" silicon cement will do it quite nicely in 95% of the cases. Yet, if you want even better adhesion, first adhere some type of constraining "ring" to the platform, let that dry, then glue the superball within.
How effective is it? Go back to the stone concept. My Martin-Logans are very hard-coupled to my two marble slabs. Proof of that is placing an accelerometer on the slabs of the floor. Big time coupling. Now, against all logic, my mono amps ARE ALSO on that same slab. Difference? They are hard-coupled via points to a small aluminim plate which is then placed on the marble slab de-coupled by the superballs.
Folks, one of the benefits of my business is that I have access to devices and instruments even Stereophile cannot afford. I have placed the world's most sensitive accelerometers on my amps, while my speakers were at redline, and could NOT measure a thing at any meaningful frequency. THAT is how effective these silly-assed superballs are. Man, they are so cheap, just try 'em. I mean really, four for a buck? Good, tough silicon cement is more expensive but not much more than four bucks a tube.
You know what you are going to find? Before the super balls I spent almost a hundred bucks for four "feet" from a famous manufacturer I won't name. Now, they're garbage. The superballs so outperform it is sick. And ultra-expensive Sorbothane concoctions? One helluva polymer, dead as the dinosaurs but still not measureably better than simple dime-store superballs.
So, stones 'n balls. Way cheap, way common, way effective.
- Mark Gdovin
Follow Ups:
This has been fun. There's been some "jokes" and some "gigs" that contribute to a common belief that I am nuts. So be it. I am.But, the most important lesson was what I have been most blessed to have learned by working in such amazing diversity of technology: Look outward, look to "other" solutions and "other" problems.
Look, you DO have to "tie down" superballs with glue or constraining "rings. Wanna get silly? Do you remember those silly-assed "bumper pool" tables? Well, those "rings" are great!!!
Look, folks, my real purpose is seeking out really cheap and very effective tweaks that don't pad some jerk's silly marketing ploy. If you just understand the barest of bsics in physics you'll find so many simple things out there you can use to really help the audio "cause". That was my real purpose.
Look, I've stated my game and my opinion. Make fun if you will. I'm sorry, but I DO like "pure" superballs better than those with occlusions. Does that make me insane? Just try 'em, they are so cheap, and tell me after you are done. I'm man enough to bear your unfettered evaluation.
Oh well, the topic is tired. I shared my experience and, to this day, I'm PAID to put silly-assed superballs under $100,000 microscopes. If you doubt me, then, by all means, pay a hundred bucks for some "brand" that does no better. Yet, if you are "adventurous" then, by all means, spend a couple of bucks in a gumball machine then buy a really good silicon-based adhesive. Hell, I've got nothing to lose. It ain't like I'm making money here . . .
Whatever you do, kiss your kids and animals before bed, listen to good music, and enjoy life. That is the most important thing.
- Mark
I was thinknig of what to use to center these things to keep them stable on a platform.You know the little round spacers that they use when you buy a Pkg. of CDR's.Well I think they might work well.
I already have small blocks of Aluminum that I was using as feet with Tarplin meterial on both sides.I will just use them now.Tweeks only need to be thought about before wasteing alot of $$ I always thought.Most are ripoffs if you asked me.I had thought of getting Granite or Marble to make a TT platform before,but the cost was to much I thought.
Great idea BTW!
Here's a tweek i figured out. You know those small round or square (usually brown) rubber "couch-coasters" that you put under each leg of your sofa or couch to protect your carpet? Well just turn then upside-down,and put one under each leg of your amp,CD player,or whatever to dampen vibration. They do work. Not sure how they compare to store-bought ones,,but they're really cheap,like $1.49US,and you can get them at any store that sells furniture or a Kmart/Walmart type store.
even better are "unhappy ball's. It doesn't bounce, it barely rolls, and if squeezed in a vise, it is slow to return to it's original shape. Unhappy is made of "Norsorex", a high hysteresis rubber" - this from a scientific products catalog. I think these balls work better than the super balls because they dampen the vibrations, the super balls transmit it a little more. no super-science in my house, but I tried both bouncy "happy" balls and the un-bouncy "unhappy" balls and the unhappy norsorex balls dampened better. Mark try these under your slab and see what happens, I think you may convert. regards, tony
goto http://www.sciplus.com/ and search for happy/unhappy balls....
*1993 K-Horns w/ ALK x-overs*Marantz 7T preamp*Dynaco MkIV monoblocks*Sony CDP-CX350 and CX-230 CD changers*MSB link DACIII (96k upsampling)*MSB silver digital director*Luxman PD-272 TT*Grado Prestige Red cartridge
Mark,Did you compare 1" and 2" balls?
Also, I did a quick web search for Superballs and Vending. For about $16 you can buy 250 1" balls or 30 2" balls.
Mark:
Thanks to your inspiration, I just bought 250 of the little 27 mm. devils on eBay for $6.72: clear, ice, sparkly, etc. Now to organize some A:B testing to see which colors are best! I hope my cat doesn't get into the act.Regards,
Larry Welsh
Mark,
Fabulous post!Any experience/measurements of using air isolation, which I thought was the Electron Microscope standard, as in Vibraplanes etc?
I have everything except the speakers on 30kg granite plates isolated from whatever they sit on by kid's bike inner tubes pumped soft - works great - but the superball idea will be tried as well.
Allen
PS How do you move those 300lb plates around? I'm up four flights of stairs...
I was fully expecting "silly putty" to appear in this thread before now. Whaddya think, could it be used for damping as well??PS
I have no doubt that it could be useful in some circumstances.Also, has anyone noticed that yo-yos can make great volume control knobs, mountain bike suspensions make killer turntable supports and Scalextric sets have virtually no Hi-Fi application that I can think of but they can be great fun anyway?
Steve
7th Veil LoudspeakersPS: I built two complete speaker cabinets out of Lego once. Best sound I ever heard. Unfortunately, I left them alone with my 2 year old for just 10 minutes. Since then the only music I can get them to play is the Teletubbies theme tune.
I used it to stop my license plate from rattling when I put an 8" sub in the trunk of my car. Worked fine.
Would the marble slab work when I have concrete floor already? I would normally couple the speaker through the carpet to the concrete via spikes, which is a mass 100x higher than the tombstones.
There is such a wealth of intelligence out in cyber space. You crazy knotheads took me to school. I had no inkling of some of the details of "Wham-O" and the wonderful toys of the early to mid sixties while I thought I knew more than most - duh! Damn do I love the internet for collecting "heads" and intelligence. It just slays me. Good deal and thanks!But, back to the original purpose and the tweaks. Heavy stone under speakers, elastomers, cheap ones known as "superballs" under electronics. That WAS the original deal. But dang, I've had some real fun here, folks.
Here I was "dying" from a real bastard of a cold, bored to death, and I find such entertainment in the cyber world. Way cool . . . .
- Mark
The 2001 SuperBall is available on-line.Regards,
Metralla
Mark:
I've got the stones. Now, where, exactly is that vending machine located? I've got to try this!Regards,
Larry Welsh
Dear Larry -Assuming you're not "giggin'" me, the "vending" machines are located at the front of most American grocery stores or drugstores. But, failing that, I've found 'em bagged five to a pack for about three bucks in toy stores. I tend to like the "clear" ones with minimal "inclusions". Once you haunt the domain of children's super balls, you'll quickly see what I'm talking about. The "opaque" ones, especially the "glow in the dark" ones, seem to be "stiffer". The ones that are mostly clear seem to work the best.
This conversation would seem so stupid to anybody but a bona fide psychotic or an audiophile - whoops, is there a difference? Really, the clear ones are the best. Also, avoid those with embedded "sparkles". Now, this is really getting stupid. But ain't we havin' such fun that even "druggies" can't figure it out . . .:-)
But, in terms of so-called superballs, let me share some history. I'm near 47 years old so I remember the very first and TRUE super balls. These dark gray suckers did damn near defy physics and the rules of the cosmos. If you dropped one from 30 feet, it would bounce to damn near 29. Almost a perpetual motion machine. But the story is almost legion among industry.
It goes back to "Wham-O". That wonderful man of child vision who brought us the hoola-hoop and the "Frisbee". Remember that the original hoola-hoop came from "whamo" observing south pacific islander children enjoying hoops of bamboo. His first were made of garden hose taped together with electrical tape. The "Frisbee" came from him observing urban America children tossing trash can and coffee can lids around. Small sidebar: The Navy engaged "whamo" in interest once he "discovered" a very flyable disc made of plastic - the "Frisbee". They actually thought it a viable vehicle for transferring messages and, believe it or not, explosive ordnance!
But the superball came from much different origins. Good ol' "wham-o" was touring an industrial site and here sat a great big pile of refuse. He picked up a chunk, played with it, then dropped it. When it fell to the ground and damn near bounced back at him, he got the idea. So, not only did he contract to take this refuse that was a bit of a disposal problem, he was actually PAID to take it! He soon found out it could be heated and reformed into balls. The origin of the original superball. Now, if you have one in its original package, it is worth around $1500. Remember, Whamo was the master of pricing things at 99 cents - psychologically less than a dollar. But, the original "formula" for the superball was just a pile of refuse and was never successfully replicated at a cost-effective price. Years after the original "handball-sized" and quite dense superball disappeared, came others who had figured out similar characteristics in various polymers. So comes the "modern" superball.
The modern-day "superballs" ain't the "magic" of those incredibly dense, somewhat fragile, coal-black balls of almost unbelievable performance from yesteryear. But the modern "balls" do still have much of the same characteristics. They absorb and dissipate impact and vibrational energy. They tend to "displace" this energy in orthogonal angles relative to the incidence. That is, they turn things 90 degrees in layman's terms. That works really great for audiophiles.
Not to be silly, I prefer as "pure" a superball as I can get. I like the clear ones with minimal "inclusions" of sparkle or whatever. I'm not a chemist or a material engineer (though, my brother is and he likes 'em, too).
So, where to find 'em? Toys R Us, Walgreens, K-Mart, Wal-Mart, almost any department or grocery store that has vending machines out front. I found packages of five, as I mentioned, at a Walgreens. When you try these and find out how good they work, then compare to stupid-ass marketed "tweaks" costing twenty bucks a "foot", you will find yourself laughing your ass off. I use 'em all the time in my microscope business. I buy mine at a local Albertson's Grocery Store. When that source dries up I'll be lookin' elsewhere.
Enjoy, folks. Really, this is so butt-silly-assed cheap you just have to try it. You WILL be amazed!!!!!
- Mark
Mark,You write well. And you've piqued my interest and jogged my memory. I do remember the original Superball but I lived in Australia at the time these came out, and I recall that the ones we saw in Oz were blue-grey. I also remember bamboo hoops kids played with back in the late '50s in Australia.
From Wham-O's site:
A building inspector named Fred Morrison puttered with and refined a plastic flying disc that he sold to WHAM-O in 1955. Introduced to the consumer market in 1957 as the Pluto Platter (the name inspired by the country's obsession with Unidentified Flying Objects), it was modified in 1958, renamed the FRISBEE® disc, and has become an American icon.
In the early 1960s, Norman Stingley, a chemical engineer, accidentally created a plastic product that bounced uncontrollably. He offered the product to Melin and Knerr and the SUPERBALL® was created, followed by the Super Gold Ball, Super Baseball and Super Dice. In one celebrated incident, a giant SUPERBALL, produced as a promotional item, was accidentally dropped out of a 23rd floor hotel window in Australia. It shot back up 15 floors, then down again into a parked convertible car. The car was totaled but the ball survived the "test" in perfect condition.
During the 1960s, WHAM-O sold some 20 million SUPERBALLs before it was copied by competitors and WHAM-O bounced the ball from its product line. If you're one of the countless others who've never been satisfied with mere copies, the wait is over! WHAM-O has brought back the original SUPERBALL!
Melin and Knerr were always open original and often strange ideas. They experimented with toys themselves and would try out products directly with potential buyers. They heard of Australian children using a bamboo ring for exercise and immediately turned out...you guessed it... HULA HOOP®. Knerr and Melin promoted it for months in 1958 on Southern California playgrounds where they would do demonstrations and give away hoops to get the children to learn and play. Their perseverence turned HULA HOOP into the greatest fad the country has ever seen. Twenty-five million were sold in four months!
Fascinating.
Regards,
Metralla
Blast it! I really wanted the sparkles.Steve
MarK:
Thanks for the details. I haven't bought anything out of a gumball machine in many years, but now I've got to go on the hunt!
I experienced all the Wham-O stuff when it was new (I'm 60). Actually, the original Frisbee was inspired by a pie plate, which came with "Mrs. Frisbee's" pies. The Mrs. Frisbee pie plates themselves are very collectible and can bring some amazing prices.Regards,
Larry Welsh
Thanks for posting three or four very informative mails. I'd love to see what this accelerometer looks like. Your positioning of your monobloc on the same slab the speaker is certainly counterintuitive, but you've made the measurements to back up your claim. I think I'll get a few dimes and head out.If you have some pictures, I am sure many inmates would love to see them. You could upload them under your name to the Inmates Gallery and link to them in a post here.
Regards,
Metralla
Dear Metralla -I have some pictures I took for insurance purposes. I'll find 'em, scan 'em, and let you see the set-up. Actually, those tall, black Martin-Logans sitting on those almost pure-white marble slabs look cool, at least to me. Another really great benefit? When I'm vacuuming the floor I surely don't hit my speakers or my amps, once the vacuum hits the slabs it stops :-)
As for the "accelerometer", it is actually a bit of "system". First comes the transducer made by B&K. To work really "perfectly", it has to be rigidly attached to what it is measuring. The best way is to use a special removable adhesive. If correctly used, the absorptive characteristics of the adhesive is accounted for. It is like a really thin rubber cement, is easily removed. Yet, I wouldn't want to "glue" the transducer to a woofer or some such thing. It is not unlike the "tape" that Stereophile uses for its measurements. Yet, it looks like a nickel-sized disc, about twice as thick, with two wires coming out of it.
This transducer (can't remember the model number off-hand - I use "loaners", don't own one)is then connected to a "module" that translates the mechanical vibration to frequency and amplitude components. The module is then connected to a waveform/frequency analyzer. I typically use a Hewlett-Packard but, for you Europeans out there, Phillips makes perhaps an even better unit. Again, its Saturday, at home, don't have the units at hand. But will follow-up with exact model numbers later if there is interest.
The result is that I can measure "induced" vibrations with theoretical precision 150 dB down from ambient. In practice it is about 120 dB down at best. Still, way more than enough for audio concerns. The frequency range of the transducer depends upon which model I'm using. Since I'm more concerned in the microscope world with lower frequencies, I use a transducer that is sensitive in the 5Hz to 5000 Hz range. Yet, I've used others sensitive to beyond 20kHz. I don't find the whole issue of audio "de-coupling" or "hard-coupling" to really matter much beyond about 5-7kHz. High frequency isn't what is screwing us up - its the lower end that does the damage. Anyway, what you would see is this disk, going to a smallish black box, going to a panel-mounted instrument with digital read-outs. Looks sorta cool, but not much more than a lot of things I work with on a daily basis. What IS cool is hooking up a tuner to a nice four-channel digital o'scope and tweaking antennaes for best reception. But, that's another story (I'm a certified tuner and antenna nut).
Anyway, if you want to see my installation, I'll dig up those ol' insurance photos, scan 'em, and post. Thanks for listening, thanks for appreciating, thanks for taking the time to respond. Made my effort all the more worthwhile. Happy listening!!!!!
- Mark
Thank you Mark for your excellent and really useful posting.I'm glad that someone has stated the obvious - that what works for heavy speakers (spike-wise) won't work for light speakers. It's good to have some light shone on this issue. My own speakers tend to be quite heavy so it's not generally an issue (although you can run into problems with suspended wooden floors).
As for balls - marvellous! I am curious though ...
Under heavy slabs I can understand the superball concept but for lighter equipment wouldn't squash balls be better? I'm thinking of the 'inner tube' exponents who tend to run on a semi-deflated tube without too much air.Great to find someone talking balls for a change (that may be an England only joke). Thanks
Steve
7th Veil Loudspeakers
