|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
104.14.166.252
In Reply to: RE: Impressions of the Furutech GTX-D(R) Outlet (non-NCF version) posted by jea48 on September 21, 2016 at 06:58:20
The stock outlet for the Maestro is apparently made by Cooper. There's no marking anywhere on the outlet indicating the manufacturer, but in molded print around the center screw hole is "Screw-Catch" with a trademark symbol. That trademark is owned by Cooper. It's a spec grade outlet, with Made in China stamped into the backstrap. The backstrap itself is POS (ie: plain old steel), ferrous, and probably 20 gauge (maybe 18).
I bought the Furutech without any burn-in services, but let it cook on the Audiodharma cooker for a week before installing it. Long enough? I don't know....we'll see. And no argument whatsoever on the build quality of the Furutech. It was almost a shame to stuff it in the wall as much of a work of art that it is. :)
Follow Ups:
Image: Cooper BR20 AC Outlet
I think it's safe to assume the Maestro AC outlet is a Cooper brand product that's essentially the same or similar to the Cooper BR20 Commercial Grade AC outlet available at Lowe's for $3.47. If so, the Maestro AC outlet is nothing more than an ordinary hardware store product that's been cryo'd and treated with a sweet smelling, sticky substance (snake oil?). Perhaps this unknown coating is what can supposedly make a $3.47 AC outlet sound superior to a Furutech or Oyaide product. Sorry for the snarky commentary, but this type of thing can affect the reputation of bonafide Audio Grade AC products. I'm sure you will fully enjoy the new Furutech GTX-D(R) AC outlet, bcowen!
See link:
Looks like the same receptacle as the Maestro to me.$85.00 for the Maestro verses the Cooper bought at Lowes for $3.47.
It's not the intoxicating sweet smelling snake oil treatment and the fancy box that justifies the $85.00 price tag. It's the advertising scam that seems to draw the buyer in.
Quote from Link below:
However, like the heavily modified Acoustic Revive Oyaide R-1 receptacle, the Maestro is also heavily modified. Here's what it says about the Maestro out on the cruzeFIRST website:"We auditioned everything out there and found that while some outlets worked extremely well in some areas at the end of the day they all did more harm than good by masking and bloating the music. Most of them altered or equalized the sound because of the fancy plating and the mixture of alloys used. In addition, we believe that mechanical resonance and tuning is also important in Audio grade outlets and this is another area where most other outlets fall short."
""The Maestro Outlet" is a simple but effective power outlet made from a high-purity copper/brass alloy mix with no plating. It is 20-amp rated and built to exacting standards. The outlet is then taken through a professional microprocessor controlled deep cryogenic process and then treated with our special coating for RFI / EMI interference rejection and enhanced for mechanical dampening. Finally it is taken through our proprietary break-in process for 2 weeks. The result is an incredible "Bare Passage To The Music Source"."
And how did it sound to the reviewer?
I let my system warm up for a while then put on some LPs for a little listening. So what did the Maestro sound like? Pretty darn good actually. I'll have the full story on these high-performance outlets in the article I'll be writing for Positive Feedback Online, and I'll try to share some more impressions about the Maestro as I get a little more familiar with what it can do.
Steel back strap and all. And just a guess the body and face plate that holds the contacts of the stock cooper duplex receptacle, that retails for $3.47, is made of cheap plastic. Of course the stock receptacle is heavily modified as explained in the quote above.
Just my opinion of course.....
//
For anyone interested, I have some used Maestro Outlets for sale for a bargain price of $20.00 each plus shipping. Sorry, I no longer have the box or packaging material the outlets came in. Used, but they look brand new!
Edits: 09/22/16 03/06/23
The most incriminating aspect regarding the Maestro product is bcowen's report that the cheap Cooper brand AC outlet the Maestro product is based on failed so soon. There is no excuse to claim that a product is high-quality when it's obvious that the seller is offering a polished turd rather than a competitive product.
If the Maestro product is actually based on the same model, or is similar to the Cooper BR20 Commercial Grade AC outlet available at Lowe's for $3.47, the premise of the Maestro product is apparently of the same cheap quality as what some folks are trying to replace!
Text taken from thefreedictionary.com:
Commercial Grade
Adj. 1. commercial-grade - of the kind or quality used in commerce; average or inferior; "commercial grade of beef"; "commercial oxalic acid" - commercial - inferior - of low or inferior quality
See link:
The most incriminating aspect regarding the Maestro product is bcowen's report that the cheap Cooper brand AC outlet the Maestro product is based on failed so soon. There is no excuse to claim that a product is high-quality when it's obvious that the seller is offering a polished turd rather than a competitive product.
If we take cruzeFIRST at their word the hot and neutral contacts on the Maestro outlet are made from a "high-purity copper/brass alloy mix" . The stock commercial grade Cooper outlet, that probably just uses brass contacts, may be just fine for normal use as found in an office building. I would think they are UL tested/Listed.
What separates Extra Heavy Duty Industrial Series receptacles made by the likes of Hubbell and Leviton is their ability to withstand side to side plug pulling pressure abuse. Especially the Hubbell receptacles. I have never seen the front face plate on a Hubbell receptacle broken. And I am talking about an Extra Heavy Duty Industrial Series Hubbell receptacle that might be 40 years old. The plug blade to receptacle Contact pressure might not be as good as it was when new but it still would beat many spec grade receptacles made today. The Hubbell is built to take abuse.
That might explain the retail price of the HBL5362 Extra Heavy Duty Industrial Series Duplex Receptacle at $28.20 each.
Edits: 09/22/16 09/22/16
jea48 wrote:
"If we take cruzeFIRST at their word the hot and neutral contacts on the Maestro outlet are made from a "high-purity copper/brass alloy mix".
First off, "high-purity copper/brass alloy mix" does not make sense. High-purity copper is not an alloy, whereas brass is an alloy. Does the term "mix" mean that at some point an element within the conductive path is a brass alloy, and at some point an element within the conductive path is pure copper? I don't think so, since I can't take cruzeFIRST at their word. I'm sure they are obscuring the fact that the hot and neutral contacts are simply the stock brass contacts of a cheap Cooper brand AC outlet.
As for a heavy duty Spec Grade or Hospital Grade Hubbell, they are built like a tank when compared to a Commercial Grade AC plug. True Audio Grade AC outlets include a more rigid plastic body and face that sometimes involves a fiber-reinforced polymer and dielectric dissipation materials which contributes to better electrical, rigidity and resonance control; heavy duty, larger mass conductive contacts that contribute to better conductivity and resonance control; a high-mass solid brass backstrap for greater rigidity and resonance control. A true Audio Grade AC outlet must perform a big step further than ordinary AC outlets.
Another vital matter to address is to invest in an audiophile quality AC wall plate. It's a very worthwhile thing to do, IME.
"high-purity copper/brass alloy mix"
Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc. The above statement strikes me as an abuse of language and sheer marketing BS.
"It is better to remain silent and thought a fool, then speak and remove all doubt." A. Lincoln
There are different "mixes" of copper & brass, with lesser-grade connectors and outlets having a lesser-amount of copper content.
I know this as factual when I was researching Hubbell products 16-18 years ago. Their spec-grade, heavy-duty products had a much higher amount of copper (ranging from 70-72%, depending on the batch) versus their commercial-grade products, which had (if memory serves) approx. a 55-56% copper content.
However, if a company marketing connectors & outlets stating that their products contain "high-purity copper" cannot back up that statement, then indeed you are correct. In other words, "high-purity copper" compared to what? And what defines "high-purity copper"....what's the percentage vs. the brass alloy? In my view, if a product doesn't meet Hubbell's high standards of content, it ain't "high-purity".
The bottom line is the terminology they use may be a misnomer or just sloppy hype. If one picks-apart the wording, the term "high-purity copper/brass alloy mix" would either mean a high-purity copper element is added to an undetermined quality brass alloy element as a special "mix" which would mean the result is some sort of exotic alloy, *-or-* the conductive path features both high-purity copper parts and brass alloy parts used in tandem, *-or-* what is being referred to is the copper content of the brass alloy is that of a high-purity copper element added to the zinc element, which would make more sense. However, one should find out what purity of copper is actually implemented by Cooper brand in terms of the actual copper they use to manufacture their stock brass AC outlet, since in my opinion, cruzeFIRST has no credibility when it comes to the apparent design of their questionable Maestro AC outlet to believe it's nothing more than a cryo'd and mysteriously treated stock Cooper brand product.
Duster,
Over the years, I have enjoyed your postings and feedback, but I do not understand your witch hunt on the Maestro outlet.
How are they any different than what Shunyata does with a Hubbell 5362 outlet or what Synergistic Research does with a Leviton outlet?
Have you actually compared the sound of the Maestro to a Shunyata or a Porter Port, or for that matter, the Cooper BR20 which it is based on. I have, and in my experience, the Maestro just simply sounds better than all of them.
All this discussion on the Maestro piqued my curiosity, so with outlet in hand I paid a visit to my neighbor down the street. I knew he was an engineer for an electrical component manufacturer and worked specifically on switches and outlets. Turns out he works for Pass and Seymour. I handed him the Maestro and asked him if there was anything special about it. He gave it a once over, then asked if I minded if he popped off the backstrap (sure). "Yup, it's a spec grade Cooper outlet," says he. Nothing wrong with it, but he thought (naturally) that P&S's comparable offering was better. :) I asked about the alloy of the contacts, and he said that he wouldn't know without the spec sheet for it but that it looked and felt (he bent the ground contacts back and forth) like pretty normal metallurgy for that grade of an outlet. Then I told him that it was cryogenically treated and had some sort of EMI/RFI shielding or absorbing substance applied to it. His comment on the cryogenic treatment was "whatever" (remember, he's an engineer), and then commented that if the EMI/RFI substance was in any way conductive, the UL listing would be void. He noted the UL logo was still intact on the backstrap, and wondered if Cooper knew this substance was being applied and the outlet subsequently being resold with their UL listing.
Then I told him the price of the outlet, and he cracked up.
So, what we have is a standard $4 outlet (probably much less than that when bought in quantity) that's given a cryogenic treatment and then has some unique mystery substance applied to it. On one hand, I don't see anything on the Cruzefirst site that is making false claims or stating anything that isn't true ("high purity" is obviously a subjective description that can't be quantified). On the other hand, the total cost of this $85 outlet must be somewhere around $5, FWIW.
....can be taken apart, then it would be easy to apply a contact enhancer on the surfaces that meet the wall plug's 3 prongs, including the ground. Some contact enhancers dry after application, others leave a pasty residue, but my favorite (Stabilant-22) leaves a micron-thin slick coating. I don't know about the others, but I don't believe that Stabilant is in any way conductive....but it certainly improves connectivity and conductivity.
Anyway, did you run your fingers over the internal contacts and feel (or see) any slickness, moisture, or residue?
I felt the safety ground contacts -- they are attached to the backstrap, and slide out when the backstrap is removed. Didn't detect any substance on them visually or by feel. The contacts for hot and neutral can't be accessed as they are completely enclosed in the housing, and the two halves of the housing are ultrasonically welded together (according to my neighbor). You'd likely destroy the outlet trying to separate them. I guess something could be put in through the plug slots, but I'm guessing that this EMI/RFI substance is applied to the exterior only.
That's an excellent follow-up on your part, bcowen!
While the seller may not have published the type of evidence that points to false claims based on factual data, the sales pitch is misleading and implies the product is a superior competitor vs. bonafide Audio Grade AC outlets. Based on a fundamental marketing perspective, it's unethical for a seller to take advantage of a niche market product category like Audio Grade AC outlets, which are comparatively far more expensive based on credible material costs, manufacturing costs, and performance levels vs. hardware store variety AC outlets. As much as some folks rant about the high-price of Audio Grade AC outlets, at least a buyer tends to get what they pay for, while the truly inferior product in question seems to be a classic example of a rip-off scheme. I imagine the seller laughing out loud whenever an $85 payment was submitted for their cheap AC outlet.
I'm in agreement with you on this, Duster. Had I known what I know now when I purchased the Maestro, I wouldn't have purchased it.
I should have investigated the product when it was first mentioned in Audio Asylum.
As I recall, I decided not to protest against discussions coming from people who advocated it, at the time.
I didn't want to appear combative in the forum, and would refuse to buy one in order to evaluate the product within my own audio system...
I am often astounded by you patience. Thank you for keeping things civil while still getting you point across.
Dave
Thanks for the kind words, Dave.
There are only 4 grades of receptacles defined in ANSI/UL Standards.
General Use
Hospital
Federal Spec.
Combo Hospital/ Federal Spec.
All else - "Pro Line, Heavy Duty, Extra Heavy Duty, Industrial, Spec Grade, Commercial, Residential Grade" - is Marketing Dept. created. IOW there is no overarching standard governing what a "heavy duty" receptacle is. Or pickup truck, or drill, or screwdriver for that matter.
This is not to imply that there aren't differences between sub-$1.00 receptacles that come in "contractor packs" of 10 and individually packaged industrial heavy duty receptacles.
Since the below linky was written (2005), the General Use category may now have NEC required subsets of:
WR - Weather Resistant
TR - Tamper Resistant
As for a heavy duty Spec Grade or Hospital Grade Hubbell, they are built like a tank when compared to a Commercial Grade AC plug. True Audio Grade AC outlets include a more rigid plastic body and face that sometimes involves a fiber-reinforced polymer and dielectric dissipation materials which contributes to better electrical, rigidity and resonance control; heavy duty, larger mass conductive contacts that contribute to better conductivity and resonance control; a high-mass solid brass backstrap for greater rigidity and resonance control. A true Audio Grade AC outlet must perform a big step further than ordinary AC outlets.
Apples and oranges. I never said the Hubbell HBL5362 Extra Heavy Duty Industrial Series duplex receptacle was an Hi-end audio grade outlet.
As for an audio grade duplex receptacle's durability under pressure compared to the HBL5362 it would be interesting to install one in an industrial plant and see how it holds up to the everyday abuse it would be subjected to. It would be interesting to see how the male plug blade to female contact holding pressure of the receptacle holds up after just a few years of service, let alone 40 years. Plugging a plug straight in and pulling it straight out is one thing. Applying excessive side to side pressure to the female contacts of a receptacle is quite another.
Best regards,
Jim
Since most if not all major manufacturers make a 5362 (and its variants), any idea where this (and other) numbers came from?
I actually called up Leviton one time about this, and the kid who answered was completely lost, and said something about the marketing department.
cdb said:
Since most if not all major manufacturers make a 5362 (and its variants), any idea where this (and other) numbers came from?
I am not really sure. I think it has something to do with NEMA, ANSI, and UL standards.I did a web search for, what is a NEMA 5362 receptacle and here is what I found.
//
Leviton 5362 duplex receptacleLeviton's line of Extra Heavy-Duty Industrial Grade receptacles are designed and manufactured to withstand the harsh conditions typically associated with industrial environments. Available in a wide variety of configurations, including isolated ground, tamper-resistant, hospital grade, etc., these Industrial Grade devices are the electrical contractor's choice for use in factories, schools, hospitals and commercial office buildings.
Technical Information:
AC Horsepower Ratings
At Rated Voltage: 1 HP
Electrical Specifications
Grounding: Self-Grounding
Amperage: 20 Amp
Voltage: 125 Volt
NEMA: 5-20R
Pole: 2
Wire: 3
Dielectric Voltage: Withstands 2000V per UL498
Current Limiting: Full Rated Current
Temperature Rise: Max 30C after 250 cycles OL at 200 percent rated current
Environmental Specifications
Flammability: Rated V-2 per UL94
Operating Temperature: -40C to 60C
Material Specifications
Face Material: Thermoplastic Nylon
Body Material: Thermoplastic Nylon
Strap Material: Brass
Line Contacts: Brass Triple-Wipe
Terminal Screws: Brass 10-32
Grounding Screw: Brass 8-32
Clamp Nuts: Zinc-Plated Steel
Ground Clips: Brass-Plated
Color: WhiteMechanical Specifications
Terminal ID: Brass-Hot, Green-Ground, Silver-Neutral
Terminal Accom.: 14-10 AWG
Product ID: Ratings are permanently marked on device
Product Features
NEMA: 5-20R
Color: White
Standards and Certifications
NEMA: WD-1 & WD-6
ANSI: C-73
UL498: File E13399
UL Fed Spec WC-596: File E13399
CSA C22.2 No. 42: File 152105
NOM: 057
Warranty: 10 Year Limited
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=5362-W§ion=42416&minisite=10251
//
Hubbell HBL5362HBL5362 -- Straight Blade Products, Heavy Duty Specification Grade Duplex Receptacle
Receptacle Style Duplex
Face Shape Traditional
Standard NEMA
Amperage 20A
Voltage 125V
Poles and Wires 2 Pole, 3-Wire Grounding
Wiring Method Back and Side
Hospital Grade ? No
Receptacle Grade Extra Heavy Duty Spec Grade
Face Style Finder Groove
Color
Other Available Colors Brown, Black, Gray, Ivory, Red, White
NEMA No. 5-20R
Horsepower 1
Type 2 Pole, 3 Wire, Grounding
Rating 20A, 125V
Certification -UL Listed to UL498 File E2186, Guide RTRT Fed Spec WC596G, Meets WD-1 Heavy Duty and WD-6 requirements, Certified to CSA, C22.2, No. 42 file 285.
Terminal Screw Material #10-32 Silicon Bronze (Ni plate if neutral)
Ground Screw Material #10-32 Silicon Bronze (Green)
Top Material Nylon
Base Material Reinforced PET
Power Contacts Material .037" (.9) Brass
Mounting Strap Material .050" (1.3) Brass
Auto Ground Clip Material Stainless Steel
Mounting Screw Material Steel-Zinc Plated
Dielectric Voltage Withstands 2,000V minimum.
Current Interrupting Certified for current interrupting at full rated current.
Temperature Rise Max 30�C temperature rise at full rated current after 50 cycles of overload at 150% of rated current at a power factor of 75%..
Terminal Identification Terminals identified in accordance with UL498 (Brass, White, Green).
Terminal Accommodation #14-#10 AWG copper stranded or solid conductor only.
Product Identification Ratings are a permanent part of the device.
Flammability UL 94 V2 or better
Operating Temperatures Maximum continuous 75�C, minimum -40�C (w/o impact).
UPC Number 783585435220
Weight in LBs 0.250http://www.hubbellcatalog.com/wiring/section-a-datasheet.asp?FAM=Straight_Blade&PN=HBL5362
//
I even found Cooper.Cooper makes a heavy duty 5362 duplex receptacle under their Arrow Hart brand name. See page 7 of the link below.
https://www.gexpro.com/medias/sys_master/gexpro/gexproimages/8994259959838.pdf?mime=application%2Fpdf&realname=idw-cooper-wiring-devices-cwd-straightbladereceptacles-broch-brochure.pdf
Edits: 09/25/16 09/25/16 09/25/16
Hi jea48,
Sorry, I'm being misunderstood in this thread. I should not have written "jea48 wrote:" at the beginning of the message.
I didn't mean to direct anything towards you, I simply responded to what cruzeFIRST said, then added my comment about Audio Grade AC outlets.
I reckon there is an industry standard that dictates what can be called an Extra Heavy Duty Industrial AC outlet, perhaps in the same manner as what can be called a Hospital Grade AC outlet. This might involve actual stress tests, including severe mechanical force stress tests.
Cheers, Duster
I reckon there is an industry standard that dictates what can be called an Extra Heavy Duty Industrial AC outlet, perhaps in the same manner as what can be called a Hospital Grade AC outlet. This might involve actual stress tests, including severe mechanical force stress tests.
There is, on both counts, in addition to the capacity testing for voltage & current.
Duster,
Who said the Maestro sounded superior to the Furutech (or an Oyaide)? I didn't. I've never had an Oyaide, but I quite clearly stated the Furutech sounded better than the Maestro, and pointed out a few areas where it excelled. I'm not sure how you're concluding that I consider the Maestro superior, as I wrote nothing to even suggest that.
I didn't say that about you, bcowen. Take a look at cruzeFIRST Audio's Maestro Outlet web page. The text clearly implies that the Maestro product is a better sounding AC outlet than products such as those from Furutech and Oyaide:"We auditioned everything out there and found that while some outlets worked extremely well in some areas at the end of the day they all did more harm than good by masking and bloating the music. Most of them altered or equalized the sound because of the fancy plating and the mixture of alloys used. In addition, we believe that mechanical resonance and tuning is also important in Audio grade outlets and this is another area where most other outlets fall short."
http://www.cruzefirstaudio.com/maestro_outlet.htm
As for their statement that "mechanical resonance and tuning is also important in Audio grade outlets and this is another area where most other outlets fall short" is an outrageous accusation, since other than the matter of conductivity, true Audio Grade AC outlets address resonance issues more than any hardware store AC outlet can provide. Coating a cheap AC outlet with inherently bad resonance control with an unknown substance cannot compensate for the very poor mechanical characteristics of a typical cheap AC outlet. Folks can find various information sourced from Furutech and Oyaide that explains how vital it is to design an Audio Grade AC outlet with high-performance resonance control, and how their products don't "fall short" in this regard.
Edits: 09/22/16
Post a Followup:
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: