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I would like to understand better how power conditioners work.. What you are implying is this…copper wires are used in generating electricity…that power is sent to a switchyard where the voltage is increased and sent miles to substations using aluminum wire…at the substation voltage is reduced and sent to transformers where it is again reduced to be sent to individual homes, which use copper wire to be distributed throughout the home…then we "condition" that electricity at a receptacle….then we use copper wire again to the stereo "component. Please teach me how this "conditioning" makes a difference. I completely that having a "noisy" motor on the same circuit should help, but I don't understand this..
Follow Ups:
The actual waveform of the Ac sinewave at the point of delivery in the average location SUCKS.
All sorts of aberrations are manifested in the waveform.
The idea of any conditioner is to 'fix' some of those problems.
Fixing the out of phase is wayyyy more complicated and would have to be made for the particular individual line. So it is not practical to work on that.. Though a few conditioners may claim to do so.
I am writing about the slight shift in power vs amplitude in industrial use.. For purists.. And math mavens.. It is a very confusing issue to me, and I think it is beyond most audio hobby types.. IEE types may be interested it it more..
I think your advice would be accepted easier if you got to know each persons environment first. I have clean, stable, reliable power and live in a dead quiet area. In a new home. I really think my money is used best buying good equipment and connecting it correctly. Just my thinking...
Factory that uses E.P. power conditioners pictured above.
Thinking is no substitute for experience. But if you want some scientific papers on power conditioning, Environmental Potentials has a number of "white papers". Their power conditioners are used in industrial applications, and they got noticed by audiophiles at some point. Incidentally, their power conditioners are very good and produce easily audible results. Also incidentally: you need good equipment to hear the difference.
You guys are wasting your time. From his own system page "I am a retired electrician and I believe electricity is electricity". He didn't come here to be taught, he came here to troll. Check his posting history. This is a repeating behavior pattern with him.
you are right that I had my doubts, but I wanted to learn if there was something else I could do to improve what I had. I started this with a completely open mind...
Yeah, electricity is electricity = completely opened mind, right.
you guys are too picky. I really was trying to learn something new
Just some food for thought. The power supplies in your audio equipment, depending on their design, can be a significant source of noise. Especially big SS amps with large capacitor input power supplies. High current spikes hitting the power transformer 120 times/second cause ringing (vote in favor of choke input supplies). These spikes have harmonics many times the 120Hz fundamental producing noise up to RF frequencies. Unless the transformer's secondary is snubbed, most manufacturers don't, this transformer ringing will also add to the noise. This can not only pollute the circuits connected to the supply but also exit the gear via the power cord and radiate this "trash" to other gear.
Home AC mains are single ended. One line is grounded. This makes the power cords dangling from your gear antennas for noise (see above). One use of an isolation transformer is to rebalance your line. Feeding your gear balanced AC as opposed to single ended, noise picked up by the power cords will be common mode which will mostly be rejected by the power transformers in your system. Big recording studios use balanced power for a reason.
"It is better to remain silent and thought a fool, then speak and remove all doubt." A. Lincoln
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Why is he asking "please teach me" then arguing if he doesn't like the replies when they are true?
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
I was just trying to summarize everything.
None of the reasons you mention prove a thing. In fact a more modern home is likely to have more noise producing things like washer dryer with digital controls. My new front loaders suck in that they produce tons of noise. Digital controllers for high RPM motors.
So you are barking up the wrong tree. Time for a ten dollar noise sniffer. An AM battery radio set to 600. Do you have whole house controls and stuff? The modern smart home isnt in my opinion.Put the radio next to wall warts that charge phones and laptops and you'll get the rude awakening. TVs are pathetic. My plasma will wipe out the whole AM band up to about 25 feet away. Turn these things off and on and see.
If it was 1960 the power grid would be much cleaner.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
I have tried to learn with an open mind. I really have, but this common sense thing keeps getting in the way. I do not want to argue…we are here to help each other, right? You almost had me with the noise stuff. I live about 3 miles from a hydroelectric dam. In a very quiet neighborhood. The only physical noise in my house is an aquarium (which I try to keep filled to eliminate noise, a refrigerator, and occasionally the furnace. There are no motors on the same circuit. When I turn my amp on (with no input), there is absolutely no noise at all. My power is delivered underground and I am the only home on this transformer. I have no antenna hooked up to my system. I do have my computer hooked up to my amp however. I believe the guys designing our audio equipment understand our problems well and try to eliminate "noise". I ask you, what is the "perfect" power source? A generator? DC power? Filtered AC power?
You are right, and I'm not being sarcastic. Some do go looking for problems weather real or imagined.
You tell us you have no issue with noise so there is no reason to attempt to address it. Just in case.....Awedeophile has mentioned some simple ways to detect noise. My preferred method is to use an oscilloscope to see what is imposed on the line frequency. In the end as long as you are happy....
If I detect "noise", either with an AM radio or an oscilloscope, I am guessing that would be radio signals that cause "noise"? Would that be a problem if I don't listen to radio broadcasts or have an antenna hooked up? When I built this house, I ran a coax antenna to each bedroom and was careful not to run them near an AC line. Do you think that would help the signal?
"I am guessing that would be radio signals that cause "noise"?"
Not necessarily. There are many sources and differing types of "noise" Notably RF which is radio frequencies picked up from radio signals, cell phones, wireless devices to name a few.
Then EMF which is noise picked up from your electrical system in the house. Dimmer switches and fluorescent lighting are big polluters. The motors in your a/c and fridge can contribute.
"Would that be a problem if I don't listen to radio broadcasts or have an antenna hooked up?" Possibly, see above. If the antennae is connected to a tuner there is probably rejection circuitry built in.
"Do you think that would help the signal?"
Absolutely, separation and isolation are the prime means to keeping noise off signal lines. Your approach on installation is the first step.
My big thing is to know what you are dealing with before you start chasing ghosts.
I have worked 30 years in industrial instrumentation. I have chased and at times mitigated these problems. If you think spending money to cure something that may or may not be there and it makes you satisfied there is a positive result then ok, your good.
Are you trying to say that filtering high frequency ac "noise" does no good to improve sound quality? A very easy thing to do would be to wire up an X type safety cap to a plug and plug it in near your stereo gear. Across from white to black. Neutral to hot. They come up to 10uf. If you can't hear that then don't worry about it. Look to some other universe for a "perfect" power source. T456
I think that filtering High frequency AC noise is probable an easy and good thing to do. I would guess that living in a rural area is probably good too. Living in the LA area is probably hard to get rid of noise... glad I live where I do....
That cap thing is just one thing. A multi approach strategy is required. AC has problems no one approach can solve.
You need to forget the I live rural thing too. So do I. I used to say the same thing. I have no radio tower within 25 miles, no TV within 60. No cell service. There are about ten houses per square mile where I am and some are second homes with no power on except maybe the fridge. My power is noisy. Not as bad as a cul de sac in suburbia but bad and my improvements made a world of difference.
We can lose power a few days in winter here in the mountains. People learn not to leave food in and the things on as eventually they could have to throw the thing away. My neighbor just tripped a breaker and in a couple of weeks meat in the freezer forced them to replace their fridge.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
I just wanted to understand your reasoning better. To my knowledge, the power has never gone off here. Always looking for ways to improve my systems...
I didn't say you had problems to tweak. I said that EVERYONE will benefit from various improved methods of AC delivery. Then I mentioned what they are.The power not going off means nothing other than perhaps you have underground lines but you didn't say. It definitely has nothing the do with the actual quality of the AC or the noise contained within.
I was a dealer and felt power delivery improvements were a waste of money. That's because even though I could have borrowed any gear and cables and outlets we had I was too stupid and lazy to even try.
Once I did it was very eye opening. I now feel that between power cords, interconnects and speaker wire (upgraded) power cords yield the most benefit.
Remember the noise is in your house and fed to you in the AC. Its everywhere.
Your topic in entitled please teach me or am I blind?
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
Edits: 09/16/16
"noisy motor" ? What motors found in our homes today do you consider noisy?
I would like to understand better how power conditioners work.. What you are implying is this…copper wires are used in generating electricity…that power is sent to a switchyard where the voltage is increased and sent miles to substations using aluminum wire…at the substation voltage is reduced and sent to transformers where it is again reduced to be sent to individual homes
The transformer that feeds your home, and maybe 3 to 5 other houses, is an isolation transformer. You can pretty much discount any noise found on the primary feed side of the transformer.
Most of the AC, EMI/RFI / Harmonics noise found in our home is created by a piece of equipment or appliance found in our home. It can be caused by many things.
Examples:
Desk top computers
Light dimmers
Switch mode power supplies
CFL and LED electronic ballasts/transformers
Micro processors found in most appliances
Microwave ovens
Audio equipment such as digital equipment. Or equipment with switch mode power supplies.
Poorly designed VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) found in furnaces to control the speed of the blower fan motor.Poor and or corroded electrical wiring connections can cause AC noise.
Good example is a convenience outlet branch circuit that has 8 to 10 cheap residential grade duplex receptacles where the electrician used the device to make-up the branch circuit wiring connections in the outlet box using the quick stab in the back spring clip connectors. Add to those piss poor connections the poor contact pressure of the female contacts of the duplex receptacle that can cause noise on the branch circuit wiring depending on the load/s that are plugged into the cheap duplex receptacles.Do you have an older electrical panel that has aluminum branch circuit breaker bus rails? I have seen instances where a high current connected load to a branch circuit breaker has caused arcing at the connection of the breaker to the breaker bus tie connector. (Plug-in, plug-on breakers). Arcing causes noise.
The list can go on and on.....
Edits: 09/15/16 09/15/16
Jae quote " The transformer that feeds your home, and maybe 3 to 5 other houses, is an isolation transformer. You can pretty much discount any noise found on the primary feed side of the transformer" While I pretty much don't know about this subject I'm reading stuff like an iso transformer blocks DC but not much RF and or EMI. Since we don't live in a perfect AC world dreamed of by Cloudwalker it seems very unlikely to me that even if the iso transformer before the house was designed to limit RF and EMI that it would not eliminate it, some would likely still get in to harm sound quality. My theory at this point from preliminary readings on the subject. T456
Aren't power transformers in U.S. tuned to 60Hz?. Should not
pass much noise if not 60 Hz.
What motors make noise?. Any motor with brushes. Good examples
are blenders and mixers. Or an induction motor with digital speed
control.
I can't imagine that power transformers, or isolation transformers are "tuned" to 60cps. Now I could be wrong, but I doubt it. T456
Yes. they are designed to be efficient at 60. The design would
be different for 50 Hz. I can't picture much, if any, noise passing
to the secondary.
Coner, I read that rf will go through the isolation transformer just like the ac one wants to go through. They block DC and make things safer, so I read. I think this is the physics of the situation. Easy enough to test with a scope at least with a small iso transformer on a bench. T456
I suspect interwinding capacitance will allow RF to couple through. You always have to keep parasitics of real world components, as apposed to ideal, in mind. One of the benefits of using isolation transformers is the ability to rebalance the AC output. There is a reason power companies use balanced lines to transmit power to your house.
"It is better to remain silent and thought a fool, then speak and remove all doubt." A. Lincoln
There is a reason power companies use balanced lines to transmit power to your house.
I assume you are speaking of the 240/120V nominal secondary winding output of the utility power transformer.
The power company in my area sends out 3 phase 4 wire WYE power from the substation to an area intended for 3 phase as well as single phase power.
In residential areas one hot phase and the neutral, (the earth grounded Conductor), are used to feed step down utility power transformers to feed residential dwelling units. The secondary side of the transformer is single phase 240/120V. It is called a split phase winding. You could say balanced power, 120V - 0V - 120V.Only the imbalanced load of Line 1 to Neutral and Line 2 to neutral returns on the service entrance neutral to the transformer neutral. The balanced load is in series with Line 1 and Line 2.
Example, if at the main service electrical panel Line 1 to neutral load is 10 amps and line 2 to neutral load is 10 amps then zero amps will return on the service entrance neutral to the transformer neutral. The two 120V 10 amps loads are in series with one another.The Link below is a great example how a single phase split phase winding works.
Edits: 09/18/16
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As a retired electrician, you will have a real advantage over most of us.
As others have stated, it has a lot to do with noise. You also want surge protection.
Start by running dedicated circuits from your breaker box, to the listening room. Put all circuits on the same leg of the box. Run a minimum of two, with your skills three would be better. One 20 amp for the amps, and two 15 or 20 amp for front end gear. If you do the three, then use one for amps and any powered subs. Then one line for analog and one for dgital. There are expensive outlets, but Acme has reasonably priced ones, or you can use hospital grade outlets. New outlets will have better grip, which is a good thing.
There are many types of conditioners, read up on what is offered at Music Direct and Audio Advisor. There are units that have separate sections for digital, analog, and high current. When it comes to amps you don't want anything that will limit current. While you can buy universal power strips, it is better to go with audio specific units.
Besides passive units, there are power regeneraters. They take the electricity convert it to DC and then convert it back to pure clean power. For front end components that is my choice. I run my preamp, dac, Oppo, and tuner on clean regenerated power. There are a few different companies, but I prefer PS Audio products. I don't have dedicated circuits, I should have done it when I moved in, but wasn't in the budget, and now my attic has 18inches of insulation. And due to health issues, I can't get up in the attic myself, no basement either. So using a regenerater I can get clean power out of a shared circuit.
One old tired argument is why use special power cords when there are miles of crap wire. Think of it this way, it is not the last 6ft,but the first 6ft.
Using power conditioners does improve the sound quality of your system. You will hear it, if you have a good highly resolving system. For a guy like you, building your own power cords, would be the way to go. There are always used conditioners available on the Asylum Trader and at Audiogon. Any computers connected to the system will be the worst offenders. I always unplug my USB cable at the laptop, when not in use. Of course if you don't have easy access that won't work for you.
Once you have read up on the various conditioners, check out Furman, AudioQuest, Shunyata, PS Audio, and any others that catch your eye.
Then post any specific questions you may have. There are lots of smart people here.
So cleaning the AC is even more important today. My philosophy is to regenerate AC for low current sources for a few reasons. For high current devices I like parallel filtering and chokes which won't compromise dynamics.
Good outlets and power cords play a big role in power delivery too. Dealing with power delivery made a huge improvement where as fifteen years ago I did nothing about it.
There is so much more RFI and EMI these days. Switching power supplies are noise boxes, think of all the crap in your house that is always on that never was 25 years ago. Stuff with displays and LEDs, they call them vampires.
The power grid is so noisy now.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
I live in WA state, close the power source (hydroelectric dams). We have very few power outages. Do you think our power is
"cleaner?" Does anyone use generators for their systems?
Your power is likely as dirty as anywhere. I live in very rural WV with only a few houses per square mile. Plasma and other TVs with crappy switching power supplies and modern electrics dirty the power. Routers,WiFi. Cell phones, the list goes on and on. Get a little battery transistor radio, set it to 600 AM and stick it right next to wall warts, TVs , router, PC, tablet, smart phone and you'll hear a lot of the noise.
Remember AC flows two ways. Noise from my house can go back in and affect things for others.When the power goes out the radio bands get so quiet its wonderful.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
One of the issues with Mains power distribution in the US is that the quality and "cleanliness" has gone down-
to wit:
power spikes are common, as well as sagging mains voltage
DC and HF noise is on the lines from other cables carried on the same poles and a general lessening of shielding-
this all leads to the desire/needs for conditioning-
Conditioning can be passive - some caps to clear out the DC and limit the HF ac noise
or active-
that regenerate the ac at 60Hz and keep the voltage at 120 - or 115.....
Happy Listening
I find 120hz AC the best sounding. I like the little P-300 upgraded and with better outlets. It also has balanced power unlike the new ones.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
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