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It's been one week now that I've recapped my Korn&Macway preamp with Elna Silmic II.Am still not convinced with the sound, tho... It sounded amazing after just replacing the two big filter caps with ROE new old stock, but replacing all the smaller decoupling electrolytics didn't bring such a great improvement so far.
Considering the premap is about 30 years old, maybe a bit more, I was gonna replace them anyways, but I'm not sure about my choice.It's been opening much after about 20hours of playing, the first day was really terrible, but I still find the sound to have a slightly nasal, muffled quality, with treble that lacks a bit life and dynamics.
I had recapped my Revox CD player with the same caps with great results, but I suspect a preamplifier circuit might be more sensitive to the choice of caps.
Is Silmic II a "bad choice"? They're considered by many as the finest electrolytic for smaller values; some prefer cerafines or Nichicon KZ tho
or do I need to play them a bit longer?
I heard they need 100hours to bed in, but if they become even more dull, it's just gonna be worseanybody experienced the same thing with those caps?
Edits: 06/09/16Follow Ups:
Really enjoyed this thread, as caps are important components to achieve the desired sound across several fronts.
Even more interesting is the effort to get the sound right to the edge at the high end. I struggled with that on my system for some time, adjusting tubes. Below the edge, things sounded a bit flat. Above the edge, a bit harsh and shrill. At the end of the day, I preferred just slightly over the edge, as below the edge sounded somewhat lifeless.
Good luck, and well worth the effort resolving. Listening is challenging when you realize something is 'missing' or just not right. Hard to ignore .....
I like Silmic II. A musical capacitor IMO. They sounded good right away. Went a little duller and after 75 hours started opening up again. 100-150 hours and they will 'be there'. I do mix Silmic II with Nichicon top rated UKZ Muse in the coupling circuits. I think all Muse can be a little too sharp sounding thus the mix. Latest rebuilt receiver is an Allied 395 (Pioneer SX-1000TW). 55 watts RMS per channel. I replaced every capacitor. Used Nichicon Gold (2x 2200uF) in the power supply and Silmic II as speaker output capacitors. Also used CIS (Cree) Schottky in the two power supplies. You must use a heat sink on the HV diodes.Next 'bad boy' on the bench is an Onkyo TX-2500 MKII at 40 watts RMS per channel. Due to room issues it gets Hexfred that do not need as much heatsink as CIS Cree that have too much leakage at high heat- keep the CIS Cree cool. I do not like op-amp phono stages that eliminates most 1774 to 1980 receivers. The Onkyo has a so-so phono stage even being all discrete. I think the phono electrolytic input cap is lousy, will replace with polypropylene.
Edits: 05/09/21 05/09/21 05/09/21
BTW- My post above is a receiver I just rebuilt. I have not used Silmic II in the last few years, but new rebuild using Silmic II confirms the performance.
Edits: 05/10/21
This is an old post, but IMO the ELNA Silmic II are excellent. I do not hear a hint of treble roll-off as stated. If anything, the Silmic II are on the bright side and extremely clear.
I love the Silmics also but I wouldn't say they were on the bright side. Some find them too rolled off or maybe dull. Anyone wanting to try the Silmics shouldn't worry about brightness, IMHO. One of the best bang for the buck in audio.
"It was zero threat, right from the start, it was zero threat" Alfred E. Neuman
The one time in my DIY life that I ever used an electrolytic as a coupling capacitor, I did use a Silmic II, but I bypassed it with a 0.1uF teflon film capacitor. This was 10uF Silmic II bypassed by 0.1uF teflon. The combo was excellent sounding. About a year ago, I removed these capacitors in favor of a 10uF bipolar Nichicon Muse capacitor with no bypass at all. After months of break-in, I think the sound is quite comparable to what I had before; I cannot be sure it's any better but maybe.
However, mostly I use Silmic II as power supply or decoupling capacitors in solid state gear, e.g., in my Klyne preamplifier, and to my ear the results are excellent. One guru opined that because of their unique construction, the Silmic II's actually produce less distortion than most conventional small value, low voltage electrolytics. I have no idea whether that's true, but his endorsement may be the reason why the "internet" ranks them so high.
Another reason that the "internet" rates the SilmicII so high could be that they sound great . Some of what people like in the treble doesn't or at least may not exist in real live music, IMHO. It's likely that one could bypass them to make them brighter if that's what was wanted or needed, less possibly rolled off. Tweaker
Edits: 07/01/16
They start to sound very good. I sometimes wish for a tiny bit more sharpness and crispness, just a tiny bit more edge, but globally they sound now very nice, I expect them to keep opening up a bit in the next few days... let's see!
KanedaK, Please report what you think about the Silmics. You should have burnt them in for quit some time now. I'm interested in what you think. While they may be somewhat rolled off on the top end I don't hear the kind of super fast leading edge and hyper detail in live music as I hear from some kinds of electronics. I hear no nasality from the Silmics. They are to me pretty much how Elna describes them. Warm, full, clear,deep bass glare free treble. My definition of good sounding. I'm a bit on the fence on the issue of treble extention and detail. I don't here in my main live music venues what may be though of as extended highs and sparkle, or extra sparkle, or for that matter any sparkle. I am soon to fully recap my dac with Silmics and do admit the possibility of an excessive treble roll off. Tweaker
Well, I'm happy to say burn-in is over, and it now sounds as good as I was hoping for.
Treble clarity is back, openness and image, warmth and purity, yes!
I suspect people who don't like Silmic II didn't burn them in long enough... the change for good happened quite recently (even tho I can't really count how many hours). They really sound like crap for a looooooong time!!!
K, Thanks for the reply. I myself have never perceived a bad period but I'm not paying attention to just one change and then waiting. The only thing that I see that may be " wrong" is a subdued treble although as I have said before I don't hear the kind of brightness in real live music like can be in many stereo systems. Sizzle and boom seems to be what many like. Also a very quick leading edge, if it were accurate can be a little hard on my old ears. I'm into warmth and comfort these days with a soulful, intimate presentation. The Silmics blow away the Nichicon KZ in this respect, IMHO. Glad they worked out. IMO they are what many people "should" like who want a " tube like" sound. Natural, musical, deep bass, glare free treble,forward mids. What more can one ask for from a sometimes 30 cent cap? Tweaker
Silmic II never get "sharp" or "edgy" or "bright", but they go trough a phase where transients are muted an strangely "muffled" with a lack of air and detail, while midrange gets a somewhat nasal quality. After proper burn-in, transient speed, attack, decay, layering of sound, all comes back, and midrange becomes transparent instead of nasal. My experience on my system anyways ;)
phono preamp I recapped with the Elna Silmic II's. I had the Nichicon KZ in there but even though it sound nice there was just something missing. I then gave the Silmic II's a try and immediately there was more musical presentation with a more quiet background and the music seem to come out from nothing. Then it took that turn to the ugly and I knew it was the break in and it seemed to take forever to clear up.
I know I still don't have 100hrs in music break in time this along with my ART 9 cartridge is still breaking in (25-35 hrs.) but it's sounding better every time I play my Vinyl. My Phono preamp doesn't have an ON/OFF switch so it stays on all the time so that has helped a some with the break in.
Once everything has passed that 150hr. stage then I will now what I have. But so far, it's going in the right direction. This phono preamp with my BAT VK-30 preamp are a great match.
I don't think these caps should be sold short by people reading the negative reviews. They are so inexpensive that they should be tried, IMO. Big game changers as far a I'm concerned. The fav of Nelson Pass. T
This is why I recommended them to you a while back. You also dead on with your comment about the tube sound. They do seem to bring that but this is not a bad thing and this is what I like.
What they don't do is present that sizzle you talked about but the upper end is there just not so dominant like other caps. They also have a deeper soundstage from what I can hear between them and the Nichicon KZ.
Hey, Would I steer you wrong. Their lack of edge is a quality I like about them. Full bodied and not peaky. Very natural sounding. Detailed without being etched or bright. They dust the Nichicon KZ, IMHO. Hope you can live with them. T
in the output coupling caps and later bypassed with the Auricap XO caps. That made a big difference than with just the Silmic II alone. But the Silmic II alone were still good sounding but the Auricaps XO's brought that little extra I was looking for plus a wider/deeper soundstage.
I did try the bypassing the Silmic II's with Dueland Alexander's just for the heck of it and that was even better sounding not by much than with the Auricap XO's but just they were just too big to fit.
I also used the Panasonic FM caps in the power supply.
Hope this helps!
The term "sounds great" for me is opaque, first because I do not even think of using any electrolytic as a coupling capacitor (except in the one instance noted, where space just does not permit use of a film capacitor), which is the most likely way to influence "sound", and second because the term expresses the opinion of the author, and I have no way to fathom his preferences. I do agree that I also can find no fault with ELNA Silmics used in solid state power supplies, and I also use them galore in my vintage direct-drive turntable electronics. Push come to shove, I would also use the best grade Nichicons in these applications with no hesitation. The Nichicon Muse bipolar capacitors are quite interesting. I own a Sencore capacitance/inductance meter. For yucks, I compared the ESR of a 10uF/50V Silmic II to that of a 10uF/50V bipolar Nichicon Muse, and to my surprise the ESR of the latter was quite a bit lower. This lead me to sub the Muse in for the Silmic in that one coupling application I mentioned above, in a Beveridge direct-drive amplifier.
I put a WA Quantum chip on top and it changes the sound to a Teflon. Well, almost. Really huge benefit in transparency and air and detail. Then I bypass it with a modified Wima .15 cap (see my website for details). This adds more air, extension and detail. The combo is really nice. Of course, a better cap to begin with makes it even better. I have not listened to the new Audio Note caps but I bet they are really good. By themselves, the Silmics are boring.
Is it worth the money spent?
One WA Quantum per capacitor is several times costlier than capacitor itself...
THAT caught my attention!
Would like to hear more experiences about them.
Maybe try them on my EVS 100s for starters.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
Personally, I hate the Silmics 2 because of similar reasons like the ones you mentioned, even after burn-in. I think they're very overrated on the internet.
Nichicons KZ and FG are better IMHO. I'm also a big fan of big industrial capacitors, like RIFAs PEH169, Epcos/Siemens LL and Sikorel. I highly recommend them.
I too hate Silmic II caps. I have tried them in both solid state and tube applications (cathode bypass caps), and each time they sounded very colored and unmusical even after hundreds of hours of use. In each of the spots where I tried the Silmics, I replaced them with NOS BlackGate FK series caps and the differences were not subtle at all. The BG caps have the life, dynamics and full frequency extension missing from the Silmics.
Of course, the BGs are no longer available, but if I were in your shoes I would try one of the new Audio Note Kaisei caps. I recently used a higher-voltage Kaisei (50uf, 500v) in one of my tube projects and it is the only cap I have tried that is in the same league as a BG WKZ. I don't know if the low-voltage models are equally good, but I would certainly give them a try, I ordered mine from Hifi Collective in the UK. As far as I know, they are not yet available in the US.
I have found (after building chip amps, among other things) that too many of almost any type of passive component will impart coloration, sometimes for better but usually for worse. The only possible exception is Z-foil resistors; I still haven't installed too many of those. Each additional one seems to lift another veil, however slight, with no drawbacks.When I used Silmic II's in a power amp input coupling position, it absolutely KILLED high frequencies and dynamics. I let them play for many, many hours (100's?) without ever achieving any sort of transparency or life, and I noticed a sort of nasal resonance on some vocals and instruments. I thought my stereo was broken! In their place, I now use Blackgate standard with phenomenal fidelity, as well as having tried KZ with nearly equal success. I have also replaced the Silmic's in the output coupling of my Marantz SA-11S1 SACD player with BG std's, again with remarkable results: much more dynamic with plenty of air and detail.
I don't know why Silmic's are popular in signal path apps, and I cannot understand why no one in the audio business is able to duplicate whatever it is BG's can do. KZ comes the closest, in my experience.
Peace,
Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9
Edits: 06/09/16
I don't see Silmic's or any other elco being popular in signal path apps ie used for coupling.
They can not compete with decent film (MKP) capacitors for signal coupling purposes.
Silmic's are pretty good for decoupling purposes IME.
Well, when I recapped my Revox CD player, it was my first recap job, I didn't want to mess around with the design..; there was electrolytic caps as output coupling caps, so I put Elna Silmic II in that location as well.
I left them for a while but there was something not quite as clean as I wanted in the treble; following some forum tips I then replaced the single silmic cap with two of the same value in back-to-back disposition (-++-) to simulate a bipolar cap and got some noticeable improvement; I didn't compare with big expensive film caps but to my ears it sounds really great, better in fact that my other CD player wich uses small film caps as output coupling caps.
That small film caps are most probably polyester ones and they are average sound wise.
Two typical representatives of metal film caps are polyester (often labeled as MKT) and polypropylene (MKP).
Rule of thumb IME is that MKP is (much) better than MKT but it is also relatively bigger in size.
You don't have to spend too much in order to acquire a good MKP capacitor.
I have already mentioned WIMA MKP10 as an relatively compact radial cap.
An affordable and relatively compact representative of an axial cap could be Mundorf Evo Aluminum+Oil (2.2uF - 25mm W x 21mm L). You can find it inside Rogue Audio Pharaoh much praised amplifier.
Even back to back elco could not compete with some good MKP cap.
But, YMMV.
In the case of this preamplifier, I doubt there are any elco caps as signal couplng caps; I don't have the schematics, but I see many red Wima caps on the board, I suppose those are the ones the signal goes trough. But without the schematics I cannot be sure.
when you don't have enough room then you have to use the next best thing like in the case of my SAE 2800 eq.
If you need a coupling capacitor you could place it either at the source side or the amplifier side.
Wima MKP10 is relatively compact radial capacitor comparing to the axial ones and gives a decent sound.
Better than any elco, including the BGs which I have in all types including the legendary NXs.
I just put MPK10's in my dac in place of Muse bipolars. No comparison. Some seem to hate the Wimas. One person in the business thought the nichicon elco's were better than the wimas. No way in this case. The Wimas are a solid good to very good cap. T
but in my case there is not. I do understand what you're saying. I wish I could have used just a nice film cap. I will save that for the next project when I build a better headphone amp that will have the room.
you need to play them all day every day for a couple of weeks sometimes three but they will eventually sound even better than when you first fired them up. Don't know way but they are worth the wait. They will sound great don't pull them yet.
moray james
+1 Cougar nailed it, give them time, 100Hrs is typical.
HA
If under 100hrs. let them keep playing to around 150 hrs.
I redid my SAE 2800 EQ with all Silmic II's in coupling and Panasonic FM's in the power supply. That took awhile before I started hearing what I knew the Silmic II's can do. Cerafine in any place other than the power supply in my experience will tend to sound a little on the bright side.
If by 150 hrs it's still doesn't sound like you want it, then go back to what you did that had that "amazing" sound.
When the Silmic II's are first put in they sound good but a tad on the dull side on the upper end. Then they start to go through that ugly sound faze, then clear up some, then sound slightly dull again, then back to clearing/opening up were it sounds very nice. Kind of like the Black Gates but not as bad.
Hope this helps!
Yeah that's what I'm experiencing so far. The first day was just dreadful, to the point that I thought I had broken something!!! No life, no dynamics, muffled treble, and image collapsed in a flat plane between the speakers... horrible! Then it opened up, then it became dull again..; now it's more open but stil it sounds nasal and a bit weird. I guess they have roughly 40 or 45hours of playing so far, so I'm not quite there yet. I leave my preamp on 24/7 (just as the rest of my electronics) but I did turn it on and off quite a few times since I heard it helps with burnin-in; I believe, tho, that leaving on isn't burning, right? there needs to be music playing! so i'm about 40 hours. i will give it more time before I decide...
thanks!
for over 150 hrs. If you have a Tuner that would help big time. Please do not turn off the preamp.
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