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In Reply to: RE: Mad Scientist Audio Tube Toppers posted by Frank_Locke on October 27, 2015 at 09:45:33
but seek to understand the mechanism behind their improvement. Are they dampers?
Follow Ups:
I already have Herbie tube dampers on the 12AX7 tubes. The toppers fit pretty tightly on the top nibbles so very little of the toppers were actually touching the tubes. Its possible the extra dampening caused the change in sound but I think something else is going on.
What would that "something else" be, I wonder.
Basically yes. Here they are
http://www.madscientist-audio.com/tubetoppers.html
Alan
I use Herbie's dampers with the small signal tubes in my VTL MB-450s and what ARC provides from the factory with the SP20.
These are an outgrowth of the idea of drilling a small hole in a Black Discus and putting it on top of a tube.
Bob Prangnell emailed me about it.
As such I'd reckon the physical damping is at most a secondary consideration.
already had tube dampers in place and THEN added the MS Toppers.
I know of very few people that use tubes that don't use dampers, so it
should be easy to find out.
Also (as previously noted) OVERDAMPING a tube can cause problems, so
adding the MSTT to existing damping might be a a no-no and as you've
said, a secondary consideration.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
The person [that] already had tube dampers in place and THEN added the MS Toppers . . . I know of very few people that use tubes that don't use dampersI hate to be the odd one out but I don't use dampers on the 6N16B tubes in the I/V stage of my DAC. Despite their reputation of being relatively reluctant to resonate, I did try a couple of DIY dampers but quickly found they made the sound worse. (A suggestion from a friend with pertinent expertise that I'd perhaps merely shifted a resonant frequency made sense.)
Later, I tried the "MSA-Keg-&-Magic-Tube" tweak; it was strikingly effective, suggesting that physical damping is, at least in my case, either not of the essence or especially effective. I'd guess the former.
I'm waiting for delivery of a pair of proper "Tube Toppers" and will make a point of trying them in lieu of the current tweak before adding or changing anything else and reporting back.
Of course, if they make no difference or - gasp - sound worse, I'll have come a cropper with a proper topper and may have to revert to the improper topper. That would be a bummer.
Edits: 11/05/15
Ahhh, an EXPERIENCED cropper, which I think may elevate you to bopper, proper.
After I posted that I realized most small input tube user probably DON'T use
dampers and I was thinking more of power tube users (where dampers can be more
effective).
Yeah, dampers on small tubes are a tricky proposition and require a lot of
fussing about with to improve things. IF at all. They can adversely and easily
affect the effect.
I do use them on the 12AX7 in my pre and CDP.
Good luck with the Toppers and let us know the outcome!
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
most small input tube user probably DON'T use dampers
Any more of these "jokes" and I'll call for a stopper; if push comes to shove, a copper.
I should add that I did seem to get a small improvement from a 1/4" (6mm) mid-tube band of "Anti-Vibration Magic" applied as per pic on AVM's web site. OK, OK, not a Whopper but a keeper nonetheless.
D
I suppose we should cool it before The Bored sends out a mopper.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
I suppose we should cool it before The Bored sends out a mopper.
We seem to have got away with it.
Whatever, my Tube Toppers eventually arrived (Ouch! along with a Customs handling charge) and were soon fitted in place of the prior Keg/Magic Tube setup (aka choppers - see pix). I played this and that for a few hours to settle things down then played what I call a stalwart - a good recording I know well.
No, it wasn't "I was there when they discovered a new planet" stuff but the sound did seem slightly more refined, an impression that has stayed with me since. IOW, I'd strongly recommend either device for small signal valves/tubes - compared to using neither, the difference is marked, the Toppers being better than the choppers but only slightly. No need for sackcloth and ashes or pawning jewellery if you already have choppers and can't run to Toppers.
Out of curiosity and given that folk have talked of the devices having magnetic properties, I tried placing each (two kegs, two Tube Toppers) close to a cheap compass, one at a time. One keg and both Toppers had no effect whatsoever but the other keg turned the needle faster than a teenager's head watching beach volleyball. No idea why.
HTH
Dave
The Tube Toppers certainly do change the sound in the three systems I have tried them on. On my Eddie Current Zana Deux OTL amp there was an especially nice improvement placing the Toppers on the two rectifier tubes ( 6DMA4 tubes ). The driver tube in this amp is a single 6SL7 and a Topper at this location had a darkening effect that overall was a side step and not to me an improvement.
In the past I found the Black Discus to have an excessive effect at various locations, except for the small sample discs I placed on either side of the on - off button on my SACD player. Here the effect was just right.
I do agree with others that the Tube Topper has a more refined effect on top of tubes than earlier products do.
I find the Mad Scientist products to be worth while experiments in possibly improving one's system. Their servive is great, communication is good, an returns are cheerfully fulfilled.
who made off with Clara Clifford's copper clappers. They were in her closet in Cleveland.
So you're the guy who made off with Clara Clifford's copper clappers.
If the linked story is to be believed (it convinces me . . . ), they weren't Clara Clifford's copper clappers in the first place.
A curse on your coarse calumny.
D
nt
I also never use dampers. Whenever I tried dampers they always sucked the life out of the system
Alan
ARC LS16 preamp with 6922 tubes.
Some tubes have given me problems with microphonics, but the tube dampers always deadened the sound. Crystals near the tubes have been very effective, I have tube toppers on order, so I'll see how they do and what they do. I'm guessing that they will make improvements along the lines of crystals.
I've also noticed that the black discii and magic tubes reduce the treble somewhat, but this has allowed me to use footers with more rigidity (also from Mad Scientist) which increase the treble balance. All in all, the improvements have been substantial.
Add to these the BGT and this year has been a good one for tweaks.
... me.
J'accuse! %^P
axolotl
Edits: 11/07/15
... I would like to clarify what I didn't say.
Why would you come to that conclusion. In fact the physical damping may be the only consideration
Alan
.
..physical damping is at most a secondary consideration.
is the "primary" consideration?
... whatever it is the "snake oil" achieves, which is very clear.
They are a development of the Black Discus and if you think that is just a lump of stuff to provide some damping I can only guess you haven't tried them.
don't understand what problem it is intended to address.
Does the company know?
The Mad Scientist cleverly makes no claims that could be tested. This also leaves the end user with the opportunity to develop his own set of beliefs about how the products work, apart from the obvious fact that putting a weight on top of a tube (in this case) will dampen its vibrations and alter resonant frequencies and tendency to be microphonic. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. I use tube dampers, and I have noted that some "work" better (i.e., alter sonics in a more favorable direction) than others. Although the differences are not something I lose sleep over.
This also leaves the end user with the opportunity to develop his own set of beliefs about how the products work
and, just as often, an opportunity for End Non-Users to develop an a priori but potentially misleading assumption that they don't. Couple that with the ability to dismiss products that they have never heard and never plan to and you have a formula for bufoonery that even Jonathon Swift would struggle to belittle.
If I developed a worthwhile tweak and wanted to market it, I'd tend to see "measurements" (whatever their other merits) as a tool in the hands of End Not-Users keen to show off how they feel competent to dismiss any new phenomenon. Naysaying End Not-Users are IMHO as much to blame for the paucity of pertinent data as any manufactuer.
and you could fairly accuse me of being one (a NENU). So, just for that reason, I will try some Tube Toppers. By the way, I wrote nothing about measurements per se. However, I usually want to know how a product works to make its magic, even if the idea is theoretical on the part of the manufacturer. I don't think that's too much to ask. What surprises me is that folks like yourself seem to be offended by the mere posing of questions about products that you have already adopted. If you're happy, why would you even care what anyone else says or thinks? You could be an Easily Offended End User. (An EOEU. They are indigenous to Australia.) Anyway, I tried not to disparage the Tube Topper in my remarks and had no intention of doing so.
Also, I am not entirely a NENU. Here are some "tweaks" I use in my home system: (1) Goldmund cones; I actually think they sound better than any other cone, and I have only a theory why that is. But they've been around for probably 20 years and are no longer made and so receive no attention. (2) Other tweaky footers; I never let anything sit on its factory supplied feet; heaven forbid! (3) Good AC plugs, but I am always behind the latest fashion. I've made all my own AC cords and interconnects. On ICs, I like Eichmann bullet plugs. For IC wire, I use 5N or 6N silver, thinnest gauge possible without compromising current carrying capacity. For AC cord, thick gauge pure copper or XLO top of the line AC cord from M Percy. To achieve heavy gauge, individually insulated strands of thin gauge run in parallel sound best, IMO. In general, ribbons and thin gauge wire sound best, IMO. I hardwire AC cord when possible, in the belief that an IEC connection robs some of the benefits of a good AC cord. I've tried several different wraps around AC cords and ICs which are supposed to shield from EMI and RFI; none have ever made a difference. Perhaps I live in a low-hazard area for those radiations. (4) AC power regenerator, only on front end equipment, never on amplifiers. (5) Tube dampers from Herbie and other sources; I like Herbie's the best but only because they are well made and sensibly do not cause the tube to run too hot. (6) I carefully dress all signal-carrying leads with respect to AC cords. (7) I do quite a lot of DIY building and modifying of tube equipment, and in those endeavors, I have many biases that are substantiated only by my own listening experience; I never measure distortion except by looking at sine waves on a 'scope.
Could you copyright this phrase, and could we use NENU as an abbreviation of same?
axolotl
Could you copyright this phrase . . .
Well, I could but Public Domain is where I generally lurks. 'Sides, NENUs is bad news.
But what are Morks?
D
.
I just wanted to add a thought as to why tweaks like these are not often explained by the manufacturer and kept a mystery. The materials to make the tube toppers is obviously not something rare like pieces of moon rock or ground diamonds. If they went into detail about the product of even the specific problem, emi,rfi,ect they address copy cat and diy'ers would soon be making clones. Mapleshade comes to mind. They explain their tweaks in great detail. So what do a lot us of do? Instead of buying their product, we get our own maple platform or brass weights.
The Mad Scientist people have a 30 day money back guarantee. You can try them and if they don't work return them. I don't think there is an deception involved in their vagueness.
Yet in spite of the truth in what you say, Mapleshade is a long-lived, thriving business entity, so far as I know. Probably because most of us are incapable of recreating their products or are too lazy to try. Also, there's nothing voodoo about a maple block or a brass cone (or a ribbon wire, for that matter); you either like 'em or you don't. They produce and sell great CDs, as well. They're selling quality, to some degree. Not to mention that Pierre Sprey is one of the smartest guys I've ever met.
It actually wouldn't have occurred to me to try damping tubes simply with mass when there are effective dampers such as those from Herbie's which take a totally different approach.
Perhaps it was simply a follow on from my abandoning mass with loudspeakers the best part of 15 years ago that has somehow stopped me seeing mass as a solution.
In any case I have seen the Black Discus and now the Tube Toppers as working in a manner closer to crystals than sticking a big lump of something on to things.
The BDs are pretty lightweight to effect speaker cables and plugs through mass but those effects are certainly there and I would agree with others here who consistently hear a darkening or treble roll off in certain places.
But in other areas the effect can be very positive. Experimenting is the key which is why the freebies from MSA were so valuable.
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