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In Reply to: RE: New expensive cpacitors posted by SirAnthony on August 16, 2015 at 00:43:11
Just as outrageously priced designer cables opened up new revenue streams for every creative manufacturer with an ace marketing ploy in the past thirty years, so now capacitors are the latest audiophile toy, and there's plenty of excess cash to be harvested.
Just as with cables, there are basic elements that can be employed to make superior parts; the rest is BS. Copper foil is one of them, and it's worth every penny. No metalized cap can equal the realistic tonal and spatial qualities of a true film and foil configuration, and copper is far superior in every respect to tin and aluminum.
The Audyn True Copper is the best value of the many I've tried. You can spend a lot more money and probably not get much, if any, better performance, at least for line level applications.
Lots of marketing gibberish out there to take advantage of the gullible who must have a famous brand name or the latest "development". Perhaps Duelund is worth the price, but I can't possibly afford one so I'll never know. My TC's are so good, I have no desire to experiment any more.
No matter what material and miraculous new technology is used, a metalized cap will likely not be the equal of a decent film/foil.
Did you get the pun?
Peace,
Tom E
Follow Ups:
Well I like paper and oil sound. Duelund is the only company that makes a copper paper and oil without the extra noise that Jensen has. I think paper and oils get misrepresented. People say they are slow, warm and romantic. I think the snap of a kick drum is faster on a PIO than any other type. They do sound a bit warm but with good ballance and without sounding dry like a lot of caps do. If you think you need more high frequency, try bypassing somewhere with a low value Jensen silver foil. Very nice. The problem I have is with large caps 2uf and above. They get too big and expensive. Especially Duelund. I have some 3uf jupiter ht in my phono section. They sound very good. Jupter HT copper are tripple the price. That's cheaper than Duelund but I couldn't fit Duelund in there anyway. I am tempted but it is still 4 to 5 hundred for two caps.I tried audyn true copper. They may be great for speakers. But in electronics I found them a bit slow but with a nice tone. The true copoer also uses those litz leads that are too big and are a pain.
IMO, best bang for buck.... Duelund RS bypassed with Jensen silver foil. Watch the prices skyrocket now. I should just STFU.
Edits: 08/16/15 08/16/15 08/16/15 08/16/15
If you have to add a bypass capacitor across a Dueland primary capacitor to reach some sort of Nirvana, can the Dueland really be worth the very high cost? (I guess it's all in the ear of the listener.) FWIW, I have had at least two Jensen silver foil capacitors and one copper type go leaky inside an amplifier. The failure of the copper one led to the loss of a power tube. Jensen silver and copper types are therefore banned from my stash. I have read that they've taken steps to improve reliability, however.
My preference is to use the best (sounding) coupling capacitors possible and not to bypass them; I nearly always hear a discontinuity in sound characteristics when I do otherwise. This applies only to coupling capacitors. In power supplies, I do advocate bypassing high value electrolytic with film capacitors. And I do agree with whoever wrote that a good film and foil capacitor will (nearly) always sound better than a metallized film type, although I also think Auricaps are quite a bargain among metallized films. These are only my opinions based on my own listening and tweaking.
So, while we're at it, has anyone listened to the copper/teflon Vcaps???? Are they worth the cost?
Thanks.
Late posting but have tried both the TfTF and the CuTF Vcaps in a hybrid tube amp (Counterpoint Platinum NP220) as coupling capacitors as well as the Dynamicap, some VTV oil caps, and a few others (VTVs were nice, no longer made. Leaky!).First the sound of the substitutions was clearly audible in every case.
The CuTF caps were audibly the best immediately, and once they were broken in with about 250 hours or so of use, they were even a little more transparent. Replacing the TfTFs with the CuTF's, my reaction was like, "This is really natural!". They were worth the extra cost to me because of this, but cost wasn't really a consideration for me.
The overall sound of both Vcaps is very much of the same family. Both Vcaps are similar in having great tonal balance, and neither sound excessively detailed or dry. However, compared with the tin foil VCaps, the Coppers have a more natural presentation. The tins are cool and just a wee bit sterile sounding. The CuTF's are have a touch more warmth/wetness(?) and are a bit more transparent allowing you to hear just a little more ambience of the recording venue and better tonal decay of instruments. Everything has more presence but they are not forward sounding - image placement for both is about the same.
As near as I can tell, the CuTF Vcaps sound almost exactly like the Duelund Cast Copper capacitors (for Speakers) once broken in. They're identical twins. However, the Duelunds are even more expensive and tough to break in before they sound good (hundreds of hours) especially for larger values. I had to use a cable cooker!
Edits: 08/31/15
I've taken the plunge. Bought some more TFTFs for one preamp and several CuTFs for two other preamps in use. I've never ever spent that much on parts at one go.
I got an info from Intertechnik:
For the use in an active circuit capacitors need the CE certification and because of the high certification costs Intertechnik didn't request one.
Edits: 09/03/15 09/03/15
So you like the sound of a particular dielectric? I prefer whatever sounds the best, with no predetermined bias. Polypropylene sounds fine to me, and there is never any worry about leakage or failure due to high temps. Teflon could sound better, but at much higher cost.
I have not had success with putting film caps in parallel, commonly called bypassing, in line level applications. It can work well in xovers. At line level, I detect smearing or some type of ringing in high frequencies, even down into the midrange. Perhaps you have found the proper combination to make it work.
Regardless, your Duelund/Jensen configuration would cost appx $200 per cap, whereas the 1uf TC's sell for less than fifty bucks. I don't know what you mean by "slow" sound from them. I think they provide excellent spatial information, along with lively dynamics and realistic tonality with superb clarity and inner detail without a hint of brightness. THAT is bang for the buck. The leads are a bit cumbersome for most PCB's, but they can be managed.
It seems we both agree that copper is superior to cheaper conductors, and worth the cost. It cannot be disputed that the TC is the lowest price copper foil cap available. No doubt, there are better caps available for considerably more money.
Peace,
Tom E
Generally I try not to bypass just because the current wisdom is not to. But sometimes it is beneficial. Like if you want to add a silver foil cap at a somewhat reasonable price. Larger values get very expensive. The Duelund RS with Jensen Silver sounds awesome to me. Not sure why the Jensen silver doesnt sound congested like the Jensen copper. Duelund silver is just a rediculous price. For the money is no object DIYer.
BTW I have no bias to anything. I have tried a lot of caps. I know what I like. I guess we hear differently.
Use what works.
Yes I detect smearing and high freq resonances with line level bypass caps. I thought I was the only one. It's not hard to see how this happens. Sure bypassing changes the sound, and might seem attractive initially, but I now use bypass caps very sparingly.
Yes that was the coupling caps of my SE! Previously I had audyn cap tin, which I changed for russian teflon (better thant audyn but always aggressive in the upper midrange).
In my cdp I have audyn true copper wich are very good too.
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