 
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
|
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
70.197.7.46
In Reply to: RE: Just compared 16awg vs 10awg posted by coli on June 23, 2015 at 20:27:41
Nt
Follow Ups:
d
Edits: 07/06/15
A 10 AWG solid core conductor is inadvisable for a speaker cable application, even more so than a 12 AWG solid core conductor AntiCable design.
to Tara Labs which uses a solid core design on some models
The issue does not pertain to small gauge solid core conductors, it's the nature of large gauge, round shaped solid core conductors, of which 10 AWG and 12 AWG certainly are. In fact, they are massively large gauge vs. maximum 22 AWG, often 24 AWG and even smaller gauge solid core conductors, which are the most advisable gauges to work with for audio signal applications. However, I find a fairly large 18 AWG (RG6) solid core pure silver central conductor for digital signal applications being an exception to the rule, IME.
As for Tara Labs, their novel rectangular shaped solid core conductor design avoids the more massive cross section presented by typically round shaped solid core copper conductors which tend to present audible skin effect when larger than 22 AWG.
Text taken from the Tara Labs website:
-snip-
Why Rectangular?
Our patented RSC conductors have become the definitive technology in high-end audio cables. The rectangular shape offers a unique advantage over round conductors. They have the necessary mass for solid bass, yet are thin enough for a coherent reproduction of mid-range and high frequencies. The RSC is not subject to the same high frequency losses that hamper traditional round conductors. To further understand the principle behind RSC technology, it is necessary to understand a phenomenon known as "skin effect" This principle states that in a round conductor, higher frequencies will tend to travel towards the outside (or skin) of the conductor, while lower frequencies will travel closer to the center of the conductor. The larger the diameter of a round conductor, the worse the effect will be, resulting in a significant roll-off of high frequencies in large gauge conductors. Because of its rectangular cross section, an RSC conductor essentially has no center like a round conductor. Therefore it does not suffer the same high frequency losses.
-snip-
Space and Time used regular large gauge round cross sectional copper conductor. They had not developed rectangular core at the time
Yep, it seems Tara Labs found skin effect to be an important issue to address at some point in space and time ;-)
Good one, Duster.
How do some products make it to the marketplace?
In the early race to get an advantage in the burgeoning audiophile wire business, I'm sure plenty of marketing people realized that bigger would sell better. So companies like Tara that had nothing else to sell, scrambled to make bigger wire. The engineers, after consulting their charts and taking a few measurements, told the bosses that 10ga wire was the best stuff they could offer.
Lots of money went into developing and selling a 10ga product, but no one took the time to listen to the shit, or else they convinced themselves that it really did sound great because the engineers said skin effect took effect far beyond audio frequencies. These same engineers no longer work for audio companies, but spend their time on websites telling people they can't possibly hear skin effect.
Now they were stuck with a significant investment in garbage wire, but they knew they could sell it to audio idiots by the pound, not by the sound. So the trick was claim bigger is better and to pair it up with equipment that was equally shitty in the opposite way. You know: synergy. Take dull, lifeless, bloated large gauge solid core wire that probably wasn't much different from Romex except for the MUCH prettier jackets and fancy packaging and name, and pair it with bright IC's or electronics or speakers (easy to find, back then) and you've got synergy. While you're dumping that crap and raking in the dough, get to work on the next gimmick (square wire! no one else has it! it's the best!) so everyone will forget the stuff you just claimed was the finest bit of metal and plastic ever developed for audio.
Thus the cable business was booming. They got plenty of my money, too, in those days. And I had some Tara stuff and liked the sound for a while. Still have one pair of their cheapest IC's in the kitchen system. They're still a pretty color.
Peace,
Tom E
Actually the wire sounded quite decent when paired with early ADcom an Nakamich components. What was curious was that each leg had one acctive wire ( hooked up) but the negative had an extra wire hooked up only on one end.
Also around the same time period Peter Moncrief of Internation Audio Review and the creator of the Wonder line of products (wire, solder, and
caps), was advocating a combination of Polk Speaker wire (crossbraided positive and negative fine strandds around a core) and paralleling them with Solid Core Romex. At the time it was not bad spounding but a bit unwieldy.
The Tara, on careful, listening made me aware of a certin sense of coherency through out the response even though it was not even, of course.
Again YMMV and FWIW
Duster,
It's been my experience that the infinitely larger surface area of stranded wires offers a musicality with which solid core cannot begin to compete. And that's true of both signal and power cables unless the material is silver obviously. Do you agree?
DG
12ga solid wire conductor has a circumference of 6.45mm. 12ga stranded Belden speaker wire is comprised of 65 strands of 30ga wire, which have a net total circumference of 52mm, approximately eight times larger. While that might be significant, "infinitely" seems a bit flamboyant.
Solid core "cannot begin to compete"? I find solid core wire superior (usually, by a small but important margin) in almost every signal application. Woofer and sub cables might be an exception where stranded can excel. Stranded PC's are safer, so I don't care if there is a sonic difference, which there probably isn't. It's all very close, so I wouldn't dismiss anyone's reasonable claims after careful experimentation.
Peace,
Tom E
When I was in the 12V industry we found 1666 strand 4 gauge superior to less strands as a power wire. But in my hi-fi I went from Kimber 4tc to 12 ga anticables (solid)and in my bi-amp HF got better, easily noticed. The first octave or two of very lf went away a bit but everything else upto 2500hz was as good, probably better. This sort of jives with my experience in the 12V industry with stranded and lots of strands helping deliver lots of current fast as in bass response with the speaker cable differences.
E
T
There have been many discussions about solid core wire vs. stranded wire, with the topic of skin effect often discussed regarding solid core conductors, and in regards to stranded conductors, distortions due to interactions between multiple strands within a uninsulated (non-litz) wire bundle, as well as the sonic signatures of various strand counts, and the specific lay of wires within a bundle, all affecting the sound of a particular type of cable.
Personally, I much prefer a single solid core conductor per polarity for line-level cables, a single solid core central conductor for digital cables, a stranded conductor for power cords, and multiple individually insulated solid core conductors within a woven litz wire bundle with a central core for vibration damping and better optimized signal transfer for speaker cables. The only pragmatic compromise for use in a second system I have adhered to is implementing several long-length, cross connected, 4-conductor stranded speaker cables for a distributed audio system with multiple loudspeakers to feed via a speaker selector, and an autoformer-based speaker-level volume control for an active subwoofer placed in that system.
Single, solid conductor of fine gauge (24 max) for IC's. Larger gauge definitely dulls highs. Stranded 12ga for PC's is safer and sounds fine. Geometry and connectors seem more important than conductor material/type for sound quality. Multiple, individually insulated solid core wires in loose weave for speaker cable. Actually, a single 20ga is sufficient for tweeter duty, a single, possibly double 18ga for midrange, and multiple 18 or 16ga or stranded 14 or 12ga for bass/sub duty. OCC copper gives the most realistic tonal qualities for tweets and mids, while silver-plated copper provides a bit more current capacity and "immediacy" for bass, where it's really needed.
Peace,
Tom E
Several years ago, I splurged on a 6 foot run of Oyaide FTVS-510 solid core pure silver 75 ohm bulk-length digital/video cable terminated with ViaBlue TVR F-connectors to connect a Motorola digital cable box in my main 2-channel audio system to the digital CATV jack installed at the wall. While just about all audiophile aspects improved, it is the more visceral impact of the bottom end that really earns the pricey solid core pure silver DIY build a big thumbs-up, worthy of the extra expense payed for an unusually ambitious DIY cable experiment. That said, video quality did not substantially improve, so the visual aspect of the cable is simply enjoyed for what it does right, but I expect an avid videophile would appreciate what it does, as well.
Duster,
Thank you for summarizing so much costly and time-consuming cable experience in a few lines.
DG
that your subjective impression of the superiority of stranded wire (which I do not challenge, since it's your opinion, and that's perfectly OK) is due to a difference in surface area between stranded and solid core?
Lew,
No double-blind scientific evidence nor even anything more serious than a strong impression gained four years ago when playing around with the solid core and stranded wires that I bought from Home Depot on starting this hobby. Tried them individually, wove the solids, then the strands and came away with this impression reinforced by opinions forcefully expressed by a couple of manufacturers. Came to the conclusion that the critical nature of the speed of the return, the type of dielectric, and numerous technical tricks required to optimize sound quality were excessive barriers to entry for an amateur and have always given cables a wide tweaking-berth since then and cannot afford to buy/ experience/ sell commercial cables enough to generate the varied experience needed to reach the tested conclusions that you understandably take as the minimum standard required for posting an opinion. Please accept my apologies.
DG
Part of my point was that, leaving out the never-will-end debate around copper vs silver, there are "scientific" reasons to wonder about stranded copper wire, insofar as oxidized copper will not conduct as well as unoxidized copper. Thus in stranded form there is the possibility for diodic effects between and among strands where there may be patches of any single strand that have begun to oxidize. I was also kind of wondering why one would choose very heavy gauge solid core wire as a comparator; there are those who believe that the narrower the gauge of solid core wire, the better. However, in speaker wire, one needs current-carrying capacity, so the solution is to parallel runs of individually insulated solid core wire, which also avoids the potential for diodic effects between/among strands. Wire preferences are always provocative, and I don't think anyone really knows for sure the whole story around why one type sounds different from another.
straded wire has a sort of pervasive smear LItz or non litz. While I accept stranded as a necessity for ease of installation and flexibility, I try to select as few strands as I can per insulated bundle.
I distinctly remember the old Levinson Speaker wire: etremely finely stranded OHFC copper in a Monster configuration with a 1/4 inch spacer down the middle.
Was OK better than the Monster but in hindsight there was a curious dichotomy betwee the highs and lows. Large total gauge gave bass, the fine strands the highs but there was a curious slight suck out in the mids. Experimented with welding cable too, similar results.
The problem with many cables is that the listener finds one design which complements his components. and then,even though another design may be superior, it may not sound so good within the context of what he has.
The issue of stranding came up in a serious evaluation of Tara labs solid core speaker wire designs. They have a curious purity in the midrange. Double up the wire and that purity disappears
The diode effect will occur even without obvious oxidation, as ultra pure copper (6N) will oxidize slightly immediately upon exposure to air. Litz was supposed to be the answer but then that introduces capacitance....
As an aside, some engineers are anxious to incorporate nanotubes in wire design. Because nanotubes are so tiny, physicists believe only an electron or two can travel through them. This makes even a bundle of aligned nanotubes sort of akin to a lser where the electrons will not be deflected of the realtively gigantic side walls of a wire. Trouble is making them long enough.
Graphene is supposed to be essentially a nanotube unrolled. It has almost zero resistance to electron flow, so interpolating that info leads me to believe nanotubes may make silver and copper superfluous once the production issues are addressed.
YMMV obviously and FWIW
FWIW, I favor solid core, too. But I use the thinnest gauge possible in a given application, because I also think I hear a benefit from very thin gauge. When current needs to be accommodated, I would use several parallel individually insulated strands of thin gauge solid core wire. Alternatively, thin ribbons sound good to me, as well. Litz is just a special case of this, where the winding of insulated strands results in added capacitance. I tend not to like Litz windings as much as just paralleling strands in space, but I cannot say why the latter sounds a bit less "dark" to me. I was withholding my own biases in order to ask my question of DG, regarding his bias for the opposite, without putting him on the spot.
Nanotubes, I don't know. Don't know any reason why transmitting a single electron at a time would be necessarily a good thing, but maybe some day we'll find out. I can predict, however, that the first wire-maker who can find a way to incorporate the word "nanotube" into his advertising blurbs is sure to do so.
Furutech is advertising nano technology in their cables I don't know how it is implemented though.
As one physicist explained to me, a bunch of nano tubes each passing only an electron or two will have the properties similar to a laser, Which I find interesting. Electron flow will basically be colliminated.
Mapleshade uses exceedingly fine wire for their IC's or at least used too. Yo cn barefly see them and they would house them in a silverplated copper tube for protection. They were finer that the wires used in a MC cartidge, soldering was impossible at least with standard irons as the wire would literally melt.
The wire, sonically, was very coherent (as most single solid core tyes tend to be), quite detailed but dynamically a bit stifled, at least IMHO. It was interesting and I experimented extensively using fine magnet wire, but abandoned the idea because of reliability concerns
Pierre Sprey and others associated with Mapleshade reside in my area. I have known Pierre for decades; he is the close friend of a friend. It was he who first suggested to me that very fine solid core wire was "the way to go" in chassis wiring and with ICs. My own "experiments" have led me to agree with him. I do recall the very fragile Mapleshade ICs that used tubing to protect the incredibly fine wire within. I think they used the 40-micron "6-9s" copper wire from Japan that can or could be purchased from M Percy. At some point, Mapleshade shifted emphasis to very thin copper ribbon, perhaps related to the fragility of the other wire.
Yeah, And I have a bridge I's like to sell you. Thin wire thin sound.
After years of evaluation, I find 24 AWG solid core OCC copper with foamed/cellular FEP Teflon dielectric to be an ideal conductor for both line-level and speaker-level applications, with the use of a multi-conductor litz wire bundle for speaker cabling in order to increase the aggregate/effective gauge of a multiple small-gauge conductor speaker cable design for more efficient current delivery, improved driver resonance damping, and effective noise rejection. To be fair, other than a Jantzen foil inductor, I have never evaluated Goertz-style foil conductors for cable applications, so I'll simply respect that type of conductor with the dignity it deserves.
text, 1953 on electro manetics, Haven't really gotten into to it, bt was surprised to see that parallel foil or ribbons actually form a waveguide and they give the formula for the frequencies involved.
Waveguides of various cross sections are likewise discussed including ovals and H shapes cross sections. For a 1953 book quite inereting although it will take me a while to digest it (Thank heavens most math is simple algebra)
I used 12 gauge solid for a while, it was in a bi-amp and HF wise was superior to Kimber 8TC in my system. LF was not quite as good in the first octave or two but as good everywhere else.
I use DIY 14ga copper foil now and again HF is better with no change in very LF but midrange 500-2500 is better with the foil too.
E
T
d
Edits: 06/26/15 06/26/15 06/26/15 06/26/15 06/26/15 07/06/15
Post a Followup:
| FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
Top of Page ]
[ Contact Us ]
[ Support/Wish List ]
[ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
