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Until I discover for myself that their use makes no difference,I'm of the
opinion they're of benefit! I was wondering if someone could confirm if
the reasons of why I think they have an effect is correct !
Alright,here it is ! Does a fuse (in addition to protection purposes)also
act like a "current filter" ? In other words do regular fuses create "noise" as the current passes through them ?
I have a pretty highly resolving playback system so I definitely believe
that line conditioning has played a huge role it that ! So, am I close in
taking a guess at what fuses can be affecting ? Or am I totally off the "mark" here ?
Follow Ups:
d
Edits: 07/06/15
"but I think those fuses carry ZERO music signal"If that fuse is moving AC to your system it's in your music signal, believe that!!!
AC is the start (beginning) of your signal path.
~D
Wherever you go there you are.
Edits: 05/11/15
I think we should find a way to "Bookmark" this posting & make it required
reading before you're allowed to post on this forum ! (Or any Audio forum,
on any website, if I could have things my way !)
A link to a review of the sound of some "Audiophile Grade Fuses"
See link:
~D
Wherever you go there you are.
One more fuse review.See link:
~D
Wherever you go there you are.
Edits: 05/12/15
And there are no fuses in my speakers.However, there are fuses in each power supply to kill current in case of an overload. I'm no expert -- circuits are Chinese algebra to me -- but I think those fuses carry ZERO music signal. I think that the music signal is carried via RCA plugs, interconnects, binding posts, speaker wires and circuit boards, but never does it go through a fuse.
I have a PS Audio power plant that conditions the AC power 'signal' and I think fuses see only that. I don't know whether an expensive fuse would make an audible difference there. I never experimented but I'm skeptical. Send me some high-end fuses, though, and I'll give them a listen and report back what my golden ears discover :)
OTOH, I think fuses would be audible in a loudspeaker.
What I'm saying is that it's important to define what we mean by signal path before we debate whether and how fuses affect the signal.
Edits: 05/11/15
That's good to hear you're a believer in line conditioning. That means there's two of us now. But I always use the adjectives "proper" or "superior" when mentioning line conditioning to imply there are "improper" and "inferior" line conditioners and there are many of those.I appreciate your questions about fuses because that's about where I'm at with them. In nearly all of my experiences with audio-grade fuses, replacing the fuse alone with an aftermarket fuse has been nil to almost nil.
I said almost because I remember one time I replaced I think 8 internal fuses on the rails of my old Class A/B amp and after 3 days of burn-in, there was clearly an audible improvement.
Also, there was another time of replacing the internal fuses of my fabulous Foundation Research line conditioners along with a few other items replaced. Collectively the improvements were huge and I don't use that term lightly. I've done this replacement on earlier versions of the line conditioners with hardly any improvements. This time was vastly different. But I've never attempted to break it down to isolate how much of the improvement could be attributed to the fuses alone.
I'm outside of my realm with this subject matter (as with most subject matters) but my take is that a fuse is a wire just like speaker wire or power cable wire. Stock fuses are usually aluminum and that in itself makes them inferior to a real audio-grade fuse.
One thing I like to consider. Fuses are tiny. If a dike is full of holes, do superior fuses equate to plugging only tiny holes in a huge dike full of bigger holes? Or perhaps with all of a component's AC power regulated to tiny fuses, could the fuse actually equate to huge holes in the dike? In other words, could it be one of the great performance restricters because all AC power must pass thru it? It seems pretty well known that the best fuse is no fuse at all. I've tried using I think 8 gauge solid copper house wiring cut to the length of the fuse and have substituted it for the fuse. But noticed no difference so I put the stock fuse back in place. My amps come with circuit breakers rather than fuses and I really appreciate that.
Here's a cut & paste of my response to somebody inquiring about cryo-treated products and I think it applies equally well to fuses too.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can only speculate. But performance, regardless of the industry, most always has much to do with improved efficiency of operation, eg improved trueness, minimized friction, resistance, etc.Electricity itself may not be mechanical, but it is a form of vibration, and in high-end audio we use a mechanical conduit as a means of transferring electrical signals, i.e. cabling. My best guess is the cryo-treatment constricts the wiring to make it more congruent with fewer or smaller fractures, thus lowering an electrical part's resistance.
Should the difference be so minute that when calculated should be inaudible? Perhaps.
That's about as deep as I can speculate. But in a controlled environment, just the addition of one cryo-treated IEC connector after burn-in is a nice and very audible improvement.
I own some phenomenal AC line conditioners. Several years ago I took 3 of these latest version LC's and at the same time I installed cryo-treated plugs, IEC connectors, and fuses. And after the normal burn-in time period I nearly doubled the performance of my already fabulous line conditioners. I've repeated this several times including for local friends who own the same line conditioners.
Now to throw a monkey wrench into the mix, 5 years earlier I've made these same mod's on earlier/older models of the same line conditioners but with only minor audiible differences. The replacement parts were not of the same mfg'er so that may explain the difference in improvements. And now that I think about I suspect the smaller gains years ago probably had to do with inferior Audio grade parts, even though at the time that mfg'er was king of the hill.
Something I like to keep in mind as I seek to minimize my maximums and vice versa. Sometimes even the smallest of bottlenecks is just enough to greatly choke performance. And when that small bottleneck is minimized or eliminated can be just enough to cause performance to soar. Sometimes not. :)
----------------------------------------------Regardless of all of the above, whenever I purchase a new component I always open up the lid to check every last fastener and connection for tightness and while I have the lid open I always replace any fuses I can find with audio-grade cryo-treated equivalents.
My latest supplier of fuses is Acme Audio based in Eugene, OR. Their fuses I believe are ceramic and they have all their fuses cryo-treated via the superior full-immersion method by Jena Labs in Portland, OR, and they only cost something like $16 a pop.
They say, when in doubt, leave it out. But when it comes to audio and fuses, I say put it in.
Edits: 05/09/15
Yeah, I take my line conditioning efforts pretty seriously I suppose,
with my Equitech 1.5Q Balanced Audio Transformer line conditioner !
I probably consider it as the foundation that the entirety of my system is
built from & as such it's indespensible & immeasurable at how much more "musical" & "unmechanical" my playback system appears to be currently !
One of the things I constantly rediscover is that I don't believe that I've
reached the "ceiling" to whatever other improvements are possible regardless of how often I'm floored by my system's performance level
I'm quite a bit beyond the point of whether I believe certain things "work". In many instances I'm curious as to the degree that they will
work as what I've already experienced through my system gives me an indication of the feasibility of certain tweaks
Trust me when I say I'm not usually asking a question about whether something works as much as what is associated with that tweak !
Understood. And I hope my previous post offered some benefit or food-for-thought.
And with all due respect, nice chatting with you.
To the original poster; Why they may sound different: from Wikipedia; for the full Article see link:
Construction:
"The fuse element is made of zinc, copper, silver, aluminum, or alloys to provide stable and predictable characteristics".
As for the sound of Zinc and Aluminum fuse elements: They are not good for audio and the end caps of most stock fuses above 400mA are nickel-plated brass end caps, also not the best for audio sound quality.
~D
Wherever you go there you are.
Thank you for that ! It makes perfect sense to me that the properties of using different materials other than what it traditionally used in making
something that is used in various types of equipment is better suited for use in Audio applications simply because no one ever cared if these materials affected how things sounded while being used in non Aural impacted applications !
Simply put ! Duh !!!! (I really hate "Good Enough" mentality)
A fuse is basically a wire calculated to burn up when it heats up due to passing excessive current. Under normal use, I don't see how that can add noise. In my particular imagination, fuse holders are more suspect than fuses. However, I and several others heard a really weird phenomenon the other week. We were auditioning a very high end TVC (Transformer Volume Control). We all agreed it sounded wonderful with its stock no-name fuse. We had been debating the effect on sonics of fuses, so someone suggested replacing the standard fuse with an expensive boutique fuse. The designer of the TVC who was among the group told us that the fuse was only for the electrical circuit that lights up the LEDs that show relative level and relays that switch among inputs. There was no fuse in the TVC circuit at all, because after all a TVC is entirely passive. Nevertheless, we replaced the standard fuse with an expensive fuse, and right away, 5 out of 5 people in the room, all of whom are very experienced audiophiles, agreed that the sound got worse. The sound lost a lot in terms of dynamics and its capacity to separate instruments in space. When the original fuse was restored, the sound came back to its original glory. So, first of all, I was shocked to hear ANY difference at all, but second, this shows that one cannot assume that more expensive = better. But WHY we heard any difference, I do not understand.
This has to be the 1st time in all of audiophile history where an expensive tweak didn't impart such a decidedly beneficent improvement that "my wife could hear it while she was making pasta primavera in the kitchen!!"
Not to mention the benefit of your friends not having to pick their jaws up off your floor. Doncha just *hate* it when aging audiophiles leave their drool all over your fine Eye-talian porcelain tile???
-RW-
this did not happen in my house. It happened in the home of my neighbor who is a devoted member of the tweak of the month club. What was surprising most of all was that a fuse in a passive device, totally out of the AC or signal path, could possibly make any audible difference. Then there was the matter of the boutique fuse failing to prove its worth. I really would not have believed my own ears were it not for the 100% consensus of the opinions of the four others present, all of whom are creditable.
To me the benefit is what they (might) bring to the table. Knowing the exact reasons why, is the booby prize to me with the biggest reason being there are probably at least a few factors and we'll never know what percentage of which is most important. Don't get me wrong it would be nice to know the reason why but I say we almost never really exactly know.
On tweaks like these, no really any, the important thing to me is do they provide benefit. A discussion of what they bring is important too. To me why has never mattered nearly as much. With fuses its pretty obvious that the very electricity that powers your piece of gear runs through it. But exactly what a "better" fuse might do that then gives the user the audible benefit is not totally known other than the general fact that power is transferring better from your wall to your gears circuits.
Also I'm not saying it isn't good to ponder and wonder and even take a stab at the reasons why something might or does improve things but it is the improvement itself that is key. Without this improvement we wouldn't even have a discussion of what it might be that does it. This is because things that do nothing seldom make it to the market and stay like fuses have. There are plenty of people here on AA that think they do nothing.
So this fuse thing is about the only tweak related to power delivery I haven't tried yet. One of the reasons is one of my amps has 5 fuses! The other main reason is I don't try anything that I cannot return for a refund if not happy. I haven't found a fuse seller with this policy and understand why to a point.
E
T
OK, I've been hearing enough about fuse tweaking that I have decided to check out the water! In my case, I have ordered ceramic body replacement fuses from Digikey for all the power fuses in my gear. They should provide some noticeable benefit over the glass body fuses that are presently in place, according to reviews.
I'm not willing to spend a lot for the experiment and I believe that UL ratings are important, expecially for safety devices like fuses. I'll decide on audiophile fuses after I see what results I get with this experiment.
Mike
LOL !!!
I had a feeling that would be my answer !! So in a nutshell "Don't make yourself nuts over how certain things work only that they're adding a little more "magic" to the process"
I have my own theory about those who consider tweaking to be snake oil !
I can't decide if their skepticism of everything affects what they hear or
it's the opposite of that ?.
Any suggestions on which to try on my Burson Soloist & Metrum Hex DAC for
an economically challenged Audiophile ?
Cool and thanks for understanding the fun and humor in my reply too besides the audio stuff. I hope to take the fuse journey sometime soon too.
Signed;
Jealous
"If at first you don't succeed , keep on suckin' till ya' do suck seed"
Curly Howard- 3 Stooges- 1936
Unless you want to believe or choose to believe that each and every tweak is an upgrade. If you're in that category of believers, you'd be a very busy man keeping your system up to date with the latest tweak. The problem in evaluating "tweaks" is observer bias. ALL of us are subject to it. Thus the opinion of any one person, especially a person who just paid dearly for the item under review or equally a person with a cynical outlook, is suspect.
Note the experience I related above, where an expensive boutique fuse replacing a no-name hardware store fuse made a decidedly negative difference installed where any fuse should have been totally inaudible. I "believe" that experience, only because there were five august audiophiles in the room, and all agreed instantly on the negative effect of the expensive fuse. Moreover, when we went back to the cheap fuse, the musicality of the TVC came back with it, so this was an ABA comparison.
Yep! The "T" in ET is for Thomas so I am by default a "doubter". You combine that with being half Scottish with a Dutch wife and I'm frugal too! I have big filters.
E
T
I never tried the fuse thing being skeptical that they really could do anything. Finally had some spare cash so decided to give it a try. I have Maggie 3.6's which have a 4 amp fuse going to the base and midrange sections. Of course this fuse is in the signal path. Got a couple of Audio Magic liquid nano fuses. They made a significant upgrade in overall transparency of my system. I can't really afford these fuses to put in power supplies but will someday try them.
Alan
I tried one of the hifi tuning fuses in my McCormack DNA--500 amp. I was a skeptic until I heard it for myself. That hifi tuning fuse made an audible improvement simply by replacing the main fuse. I have since sold the amp but kept the fuse and put the stock fuse back in. Looks like that large hifi tuning fuse is $90 now. The first one I bought blew in less than a minute but was replaced free. The second one no problems.
Thanks for that. I had speakers once with tweeter fuses and removed them, hell I do it with my CD transports AC delivery too. Big improvements! I know a better conducting fuse will improve things in the same way a better capacitor or resistor will.
My lower income the last few years is a big part as well. Someday.....
E
T
To my ears and in my systems, audiophile fuses make a significant difference in sound and most importantly- music enjoyment. Synergistic Research makes two different sounding fuses with a 30 day money back trial. Give them a try. It is a great Tweaker experiment!
Neat, thanks for that.
E
T
I guess I'll have to stage my thoughts/observations a little differently
over here for future reference !The posting that "Skepticism is healthy" (I'm sure this is the required
password for AES meetings)gave me several serious chuckles !I'll have to give the Cable Co. a ring to see if they can send me a few
HiFi Tuning fuses to try!(Hmmm, I'll bet they were wearing "Skepticism is healthy" T-Shirts under
their clothes when they were burning "Witches" back in Salem.)
Edits: 05/06/15 05/06/15
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