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I bought a couple of Duelund .47uf Cast PIO capacitors for my Audio Note DAC 2.1B. I REMOVED 2 AN tin caps from my 6922 board. These caps had thin leads on each end and were soldered about 2.5 inches apart.
The Duelund caps have leads that are both on the same side of the cap and the leads are to thick to get through the existing solder holes.
What is the best way to install these caps?
Follow Ups:
I just did this two weeks ago for the same reason. Upgraded caps had larger diameter leads in a cheap section. I used pieces of a different caps leads as I stated below. Worked fine.
E
T
Perhaps it should have stayed forgotten. You will never know if the two additional solder joints and pieces of wire have any detrimental effect on the sound. At a certain level of resolution, I suspect it does.I'm not trying to be a snob here, but are you aware the capacitors the OP has to install cost a few hundred dollars? I expect the last thing one would want to do with such valuable parts is gob additional solder/wire to the leads.
People in this forum claim they can hear different screw materials in an enclosure. I doubt that any of that type will be able to contribute something actually useful here. Too busy putting glitter on the volume control knob.
Peace,
Tom E
Edits: 04/29/15
Relax, it was a $12 phono preamp board and I put 2 caps in it that wre 10X larger that cost $5. The new caps in place of the stock lytics make a big diff.
E
T
I am perfectly relaxed, and glad that your mod worked out well. My point was that your method of implementing it might not be suitable for a higher grade application. Almost any film cap arrangement will improve on 'lytics. Splicing leads might not be appropriate for higher resolution gear, such as swapping a decent film cap for a superb one.
Peace and Relaxation,
Tom E
As someone that thinks almost everything makes a difference I just don't believe this particular thing makes as big a diff as you do. It would also help if the OP took pics to come up with alternative solutions.
I would have drilled the phono preamp board but didn't care since it was an <$20 project. In a higher end situation, with a better quality board I would have widened the holes but like I said in the post where I mentioned it you need to have great tools and experience to do that.
E
T
Why solder to the PCB and the send the signal through the solder pad.
I usually simply trace the circuit and solder to the component that the coupling cap links: usually a resister and the RCA jack itself.
Simple and it cuts a lot o excess material in the signal path
If you believe that "almost everything makes a difference," I cannot understand why you state putting a couple extra solder joints and pieces of crappy wire in a sensitive portion of a circuit will not matter much. Most people here obsess, sometimes foolishly, about eliminating whatever connection from their system that they possibly can, yet you're advising someone to add joints.
Regarding enlarging the holes, you are advising someone who doesn't seem to know much about what they're doing to do something of which you yourself are, and everyone else should be, wary. Do you know what a through-plated hole is? Any PCB with two or more layers has them. They're not all important, but if you drill out one that is, your component might not work until you add solder to bridge the gap. A lifted pad or broken trace is not the end of the world, but it adds complexity for anyone who doesn't have much experience. Once you've botched a board, it's that way forever. Ever wanna sell that gear?
Sorry to seem like a cop, but I'm just trying to point out what I believe to not be the best solution to the OP's problem. If he, or anyone else who reads this, wants to follow your advice, they should be aware of possible risks or drawbacks. Of course, it could all work out fine and sound wonderful.
Confused,
Tom E
Tom:
Thanks for all your replies. I'm getting something out of the thread which is good. I also want to say I in no way think you are wrong and/or I am right or offended in anyway as I've always enjoyed your posts. I feel I needed to say that because writing on a BBS does not allow physical interaction where one knows or can read the others "total" reaction.
I'll address some of your points in the last reply"
"""If you believe that "almost everything makes a difference," I cannot understand why you state putting a couple extra solder joints and pieces of crappy wire in a sensitive portion of a circuit will not matter much. Most people here obsess, sometimes foolishly, about eliminating whatever connection from their system that they possibly can, yet you're advising someone to add joints."""
As to the not understanding I see where you would feel that way. I almost said Everything not almost everything. But in this case both the OP and I have experiences where this method worked OK. Now perhaps mine did because we're talking low voltage and current and not a high resolving (op amp) circuit. But without a pic to perhaps find other methods like soldering to the components and not using the PC board (traces) this method of adding less than an inch of wire (as good a wire as you have not just crappy wire) is a viable alternative to the much tougher widening the hole method you address in your next paragraph. I know the negatives theoretically in the add a piece of wire method but the OP and myself have pointed out two scenarios where it was at least acceptable.
""Regarding enlarging the holes, you are advising someone who doesn't seem to know much about what they're doing to do something of which you yourself are, and everyone else should be, wary. Do you know what a through-plated hole is? Any PCB with two or more layers has them. They're not all important, but if you drill out one that is, your component might not work until you add solder to bridge the gap. A lifted pad or broken trace is not the end of the world, but it adds complexity for anyone who doesn't have much experience. Once you've botched a board, it's that way forever. Ever wanna sell that gear?"""
Again I hear you and I mentioned the need for experience and that it was risky in the first post where I mentioned it. When I was a bench tech I had to repair test equipment that was abused and often had to repair SMD and through hole boards. I don't think just mentioning the possibility of this method as I did with the warning I also added was wrong.
""Sorry to seem like a cop, but I'm just trying to point out what I believe to not be the best solution to the OP's problem. If he, or anyone else who reads this, wants to follow your advice, they should be aware of possible risks or drawbacks. Of course, it could all work out fine and sound wonderful."""
Not at all! You don't seem like a cop. This is and was a positive and thoughtful discussion from the beginning of an issue that will come up from time to time. If we stay around long enough it will likely happen again. What is most positive is we acted like adults, treated each other with respect and discussed the issues and our differences on the topic. When you compare that with some of the silliness and name calling that goes on here and other BBS we can be happy this thread will stay on forever for others to see.
Cheers!
E
T
Thanks for such a thoughtful reply. Very refreshing here. Obviously, you know a lot about this stuff, and that makes for a pleasant discussion and exchange of valid viewpoints.
There usually is not an absolute right or wrong way. It's good to examine all the approaches, even try a few, then make a choice. I hope the OP is successful and shares his findings. So many posters just bail out and are never heard from again.
I've had to fix more than few of my own blunders on through-hole boards. I once tried to repair an SMD board and junked a $3K TV. Perhaps I'm a bit overly cautious now, especially without knowing the level of experience involved.
Yeah, pics generally make everything easier to understand. There's gotta be a way to get those new caps in there!
Peace,
Tom E
You too! It was a great interaction. Believe me your more cautious approach is better than mine. I got a Telefunken console where the previous owner cut a bunch of wires. I connected a Minimus 7 to one pair thinking it was speaker out because I didn't have those DIN speaker plugs. I didn't have good light or a way to prop up this odd shaped chassis to look underneath well. So I decided I would plug it in after connected and be ready to quickly unplug it. Sure enough it was AC out for internal cabinet lighting not speaker out! Luckily I was quick enough unplugging it (I never let go of the plug) so the loud 60hz AC buzz didn't harm the driver!
That episode FINALLY made me buy a desk mounted magnifying lamp. It was long overdue and a great help. I also soldered SMD with a regular iron/ small tip using wick to clean the pads until recently. They have these cheap things now on eBay that have a heat gun w/adjustable temp/air flow and a soldering iron for $65 that make this much easier. Even when I was a tech that company was too cheap (and very unethical we were ISO 9000 and violated many aspects of that) to have rework stations so we used our irons and heat guns.
E
T
First of all, make sure that ALL the solder is removed from the holes. Do you have solder wick? If not, or even if you do, put a bare piece of copper or tin-coated wire through the hole and apply some heat to get any solder soft enough to lift out with the wire.When you are absolutely certain that the hole is completely empty, file down the ends of the new leads until they fit into the holes. Be gentle, don't pull on the wire by holding the cap, but hold the wire itself while using a small, fine file, and don't make any sharp edges, tapering the wire down until it's thin enough to fit. I would NOT attempt to enlarge the holes unless you have experience with that and know what you're doing. It is easy to lift the pad or damage traces with a drill unless you go REAL easy. If the holes are through-plated, as many are, drilling will remove the plating. In that case, you must solder on both sides of the board.
Splicing leads can be tricky or nearly impossible to do a neat, secure job, and may introduce enough distortion to negate whatever improvement the new caps make.
A final option is to not connect the new caps to the board at all, but solder the leads directly to whatever parts the PCB traces lead to. This can be done on either side of the board. First you should slip or wrap some insulating material over the cap leads. Be careful of excessively heating the parts or existing solder joints.
When you're done soldering, make sure you secure the body of the cap somehow so it doesn't flop around or vibrate.
Peace,
Tom E
Edits: 04/28/15 04/28/15 04/28/15
"A final option is to not connect the new caps to the board at all, but solder the leads directly to whatever parts the PCB traces lead to."
That's what I would suggest.
I'd probably just take some cap leads that do fit the hole and cut enough to solder through the hole leaving enough on the topside to then solder the Duelands to them. Tin that wire bottom and top before you put it through the board and tin the Duelands leads too before you solder them together.
If you have a Dremel and a small bit that can widen the existing hole that's another approach but be very careful. I think there is much more risk this way.
E
T
Thanks folks.
I tried a couple of things.
First, I soldered some very thin wire through the hole, tinned them up along with the thick copper leads from the Duelund, soldered them all together and kept the caps loose, dangling in mid air. Listened to them and was very impressed with the improved SQ... but only had to secure the caps.
Then, I disassembled what I had just done. I took 2 of those 1 inch square, peel off and stick on things that allow you to run a tie wrap through them. I added some shrink wrap over the cap leads, and just soldered them over the hole instead of through them.
Funny thing is, the SQ does not seem as good as it did then I used the thin wire and had the caps dangling. Not as much air in the highs. I think that it may be because the cap has not had a chance to burn in. I am going to keep it as is for now, but I may go back to the thin wire and dangling cap again, if I don't get the SQ as good as I heard it.
Hey, thanks again folks.
You are dealing with at least two variables, so you must eliminate one to make your comparisons valid.If the caps are new, they should be run for at least ten hours before making any critical decision. I'm not familiar with the caps you're using, other than that they're very high quality, but a good cap in line level signal app typically requires at least a few hours of run time before it starts to sound decent. A dozen hours is not unreasonable. Even after the caps are "broken in," they should be allowed to play for an hour or so after making any new solder connections. Also, while I don't believe that orientation of a film cap is important initially (some do think so), after it has passed signal for a while, I believe it, and every other conductive element, somehow becomes "biased" to sound best in that signal direction unless it is reversed and played the "other way" for a while. You should be careful to maintain that same directionality once it has been established or you will need to reverse the bias. The time for that varies in every application, so why not just avoid it.
Of course, the passage of a long time makes it extremely difficult to recall what the original sound was like. I recommend changing only one channel at a time so you always have a reference. Any attempt to simply remember the sound from more than a few hours ago invalidates subjective testing. It just doesn't work.
Sorry to say, but I have some doubt about the validity of your conclusion so far. The additional "air" you hear may be distortion caused by vibration. There is no mechanism by which a freely vibrating part with long leads can be made to sound better than a secured one with short leads. If that is in fact the case, perhaps you should consider lifting all the parts off the PCB and dangling them by extended leads.
I would avoid shrink wrap for insulation. Try Teflon tubing or tape instead, or even strip the Teflon insulation from another wire. You could also try cotton or gauze.
Take your time. Comparing caps or any other component is not easy, but it should be fun. Many of the differences and any improvements are subtle. Don't focus on a single aspect of the music, but try to hear it as a whole. When it sounds more real, not simply "more details" or "more solid bass," then you've made the right change. I listen to vocals and strings. When I can hear emotion in the singing or playing on a good recording, then I think it's right. All the other stuff such as air and highs and lows and imaging seems to come along with that. A copper/PIO cap is probably not going to have more zip, but it should sound more real.
Peace,
Tom E
Edits: 05/01/15 05/01/15
I too feel that how a part is or is not "affixed" to something or has some vibration damping. I also appreciate Madisonears position on the matter. Your experience is interesting and not surprising and perhaps there are other factors at play like proximity etc. Keep on tweakin'!
E
T
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