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First, thanks to econotweaks.com for generously sharing the info for the DIY version of their DETAIL MAGNIFIER. This is probably nothing new for most of you but was a great project for me. After looking at the schematic I realized even I could build them. I took advantage of that generosity and built four of them. The end result is a cleaner more detailed sound. Really.
I used 1" x 1/2" copper tubing for the housing. Twelve (12) gauge silver wire for the leads. Audience Auricap XO .022uF /600V caps. Dale mil-spec 10 ohms 1/2 watt resistors. Rat Shack silver bearing solder. After soldering was completed I stuffed the housing with rope caulk since I forgot to buy silicone caulk. I then wrapped it up tight with a generous application of copper tape. I then tested one on the right speaker for several hours and concluded that I had done everything right. A very nice audible improvment.
Again, thanks to enconotweaks.com.
Hear's to yah,
pixelphoto (Marvin)
Follow Ups:
Hay you, yeah you, the ones with the little bitty minds. Stow you inflated all knowing EGOS in the closet and check out this link. http://www.econotweaks.com/2322.html. read the schematic and build a couple and see for yourself. And please don't have to much fun if you do.
pixelphoto (Marvin)
Thanks for that URL. If the values of R and C used in the Detail Magnifier or the other commercial devices under discussion are indeed 10 ohms and .01uF or values in those ranges, e.g., 100 ohms and .047uF as mentioned, then this is probably not a true Zobel network. Because a Zobel network has to operate in the audio frequency range in order to "shape" the impedance match between speaker and amplifier, which is the definition of a Zobel network as I know it. The values for C are probably too low to operate in the audio range. What these are is more like the original Walker HDL, designed to remove RF. And I agree with you that they DO work to improve many aspects of the sound. This thread made me realize that after making some changes to my speaker crossover, I had forgotten to re-install my home-made HDLs. Now I can't find them and will probably have to make another pair.
One thing, though, I cannot imagine how the effect of either a true Zobel network or an HDL RFI filter would remain in effect after removing them from the speaker terminals (or from the amplifier output terminals, in the case of a Zobel). That's a bit of fantasy, IMO.
Hope you loaded that baby up with magic crystals or better yet filled it with snake oil!
"Hope you loaded that baby up with magic crystals or better yet filled it with snake oil!"
You're right the stein music device are filled whith r-c network and something wich could be cristals...
Seen photos of interior of the Harmonizer
5 layers, IIRC, of crushed crystals of various colors: red , clear, amber, etc. layers are separated by a black fabric ( can't really tell from the photo I saw, but it could be carbon fiber).
Didn't really see any R/C network.
Seen photos of interior:
5 layers, IIRC, of crushed crystals of various colors: red , clear, amber, etc. layers are separated by a black fabric ( can't really tell from the photo I saw, but it could be carbon fiber).
Didn't really see any R/C network.
Stu, into the stein???
Sorry read corrected post above: I was referring to the even more expensive Harmonizer....
.
Go crawl back in your hole. Its a proven circuit that only take a little knowledge to understand. Above your pay grade though I guess.
E
T
I am in awe of your ability to spout BS!
No, you are mistaken yet again, I responded to yours. I am in awe of your consistency anyway.
E
T
I guess I need to cryo my responses!
Or do research before spouting off wrongly. But I see now you're like the guy below. It took a few of your responses for me to figure that out. I always give people the benefit of the doubt at first.
E
T
Thanks everyone for your input. This was learning a exercise for me. In the near future I'll be trying a few different caps and resistors, etc.
pixelphoto (Marvin)
Looks good Marvin. Glad you found the DIY. I owe credit to Al Sekela who first deconstructed Walkers High Definition links. (I believe) Some others questioned the values but the .01 and 10 ohm resistor have always worked best for me. I've tried many other values.Second I found silver wire and spades improved things and cryo too makes yet another level of detail possible. As good a cap and resistor as you want is always best. I like the Allen Bradley mil spec 5% carbon resistor in all my tests. There are many many caps out there to try.
Enclosing the R/C circuit in a shielded body helps but I found (via a tip from Al) that a drain wire to ground from the shield was not good.
FYI the purpose of the circuit is to remove RFI that naturally rides along all wire and as it is in the Megahertz range we can try to eliminate it w/o touching the audio signal. This in turn allows for better transfer of the signal from the amp to the speaker. It improves all parts of the audio spectrum (w/HF the easiest improvement to hear) and improves image and sound stage.
E
T
Edits: 04/10/15
To those who are arguing about mechanism in the posts below this one, here is what my favorite guru, Al Sekela, wrote in 2010:
"These are meant to be installed across the input terminals of speakers. They consist of a resistor in series with a capacitor, where both have been selected by Lloyd Walker to give the best sonic results.
The capacitor blocks audio frequencies from the resistor, but allows ultrasonic and radio frequencies to get through. Since most speakers have a lot of parasitic inductance, they appear to be open-circuits to high frequencies on the speaker cables. The resistor dissipates energy in these high frequency disturbances, which are simply noise as far as the audio system is concerned.
The trouble this kind of noise causes comes from intermodulation with the audio signal. RF noise on the speaker cables gets into the amp by way of the feedback network or parasitic capacitances, and can create spurious audio-band tones when it intermodulates with the signal.
By dissipating the noise in a resistor, there is less of it to cause trouble in the amp.
Similar problems can be caused by RF noise on the AC line. There are R-C filters available to damp such noise, but one must be careful and use only capacitors designed for continuous exposure to the AC line.
As in all audio applications, different types of resistors and capacitors have different sonic signatures. The ones chosen by Walker may or may not be your favorites for speaker cables."
There is only one point that Al did not deal with in this post, so far as I know. It would seem to me that you need to use a capacitor that is still acting as a capacitor at RF frequencies. Many/most of the best sounding audio capacitors have reached and past their resonance points at higher RF frequencies and would be inductive at the extremes. Since the capacitor is sonically invisible in this application, and given that requirement, it might be worthwhile to use a ceramic or maybe a silver mica. The latter type sounds good AND remains a capacitor at RF, I think.
"Since the capacitor is sonically invisible in this application"
I can' t follow you in that way: for an equal value the "quality" of the cap is clearly audible! I've tested a few and each time difference was huge.
Stein music use in its top level one use oil capacitor. For me the result is 50% value and 50% quality caps.
Aupiho,
A curious characteristic of the Stein Music Speaker Matches Plus is not simply that their noise reduction is striking and heard completely within a couple of days of installation but that the benefit then continues afterwards whether or not they remain installed. I checked this for a month or two after the $550 purchase and then delightedly sold the pair. The dealer of thirty years experience subsequently admitted to having exactly the same experience later himself.
DG
What you says is something I'm telling myself for zobel networks too ... Often for the firsts days after, a tweak change is huge but after a while when you remove it the difference become more thin...Even if a difference still there the gap between with and without is not so big than before...
What is interesting with a tweak like stein speaker match plus is that the improvement is really huge and that you can't go back without particulary if you have fullrange drivers like me!
My idea is that some tweaks acts like a burn-in improvement: just like if the tweak was giving the abit to you system to work with full potential and that in the same time the system is changing inside to respond to this full potential and better its potential itself... On a loudspeaker the idea is that the stein zobel helps the speaker to move in a way he didn't go before....a kind of second burn in wich helps the driver to have far better performance...
Just an idea...not a proof but...
Edits: 04/16/15
What speakers do you use? I tried to find out something about these on the internet, but all I could find was one blurb that mentioned the dreaded Quantum Effect. I think more likely they are RC networks, like the HDLs but perhaps using different values of R and C. If that's correct, then one would not expect the effect to linger after removing the device from the speakers. So, maybe I am not correct.Or, maybe they are true Zobel networks, designed to improve amplifier/speaker matching. That might be consistent with other claims I saw that they reduce or eliminate "back EMF".
Edits: 04/16/15
Of course it's impossible to argue against your subjective impression that the capacitor makes a "huge" difference, but it seems to me that the impedance of a .01uF capacitor (used in the Walker HDL and also recommended by Al) is very very high until you get into the RF range, which speaks to the intended purpose of the device. Therefore, essentially no signal voltage passes through the capacitor, which is why I say the cap is sonically "invisible". Indeed, on my home-made HDLs, I cannot hear any difference among different capacitors on my speakers.
However, I think I saw elsewhere that you use something like 0.2uF or 0.3uF. I suppose at that high-ish value of capacitance, the low pass frequency comes much closer to the upper limit of audio frequencies, so there might be some audible effect in the treble. I almost want to say that if you can "hear" the capacitor, it's value is by definition too high, if the goal is the same as that of the HDLs and similar devices. But whatever floats your boat is fine with me.
"FYI the purpose of the circuit is to remove RFI that naturally rides along all wire and as it is in the Megahertz range we can try to eliminate it w/o touching the audio signal. This in turn allows for better transfer of the signal from the amp to the speaker. It improves all parts of the audio spectrum (w/HF the easiest improvement to hear) and improves image and sound stage."
In my world it's called "Capacitive Reactance". We use it as a means to lower or eleminate electrical noise. It uses a capacitor to effectively short the noise to ground.
There are a few who view this RFI as entering the circuit via the feedback circuit. My not be as obvious with tubes and their output transformers, although the transformers will not really filter out the very high frequencies.
With transistorized gear, since modern devices are often designed for digital switching use, those very high RFI frequencies can start a small inaudible oscillation which can still affect sound. Not directly, obviously, as most of us can't hear such high frequencies. Those RF frequencies can generate sub harmonics where the differential of the oscillating frequencies can create a subharmonic in the audible range
block all RF frequencies?Also if the RF is being shunted to ground, then wouldn't it be true that the ground return on a speaker is an inherent part of the feedback loop?
Edits: 04/11/15
If you're too stupid or lazy to do the math don't pose questions trying to set a trap. It doesn't make you look smarter. No need to spoon feed you either.
Edits: 04/11/15
It will only upset you more, and that is NOT my intention.A while back (12 -20 years ago) such a device was introduced by Japanese company called Enacom/harmonix. It made noticeable sonic impact.
I was quite surprised because you weren't supposed to hear such high frequencies anyway. But I asked around. Most designers I talked to simply shrugged their shoulders.
One designer, still currently active making and designing a full line of electronics, but probably more noted for his phono sections, pondered a few minutes and came up with the feedback hypothesis.
He noted that in his mathematical calculations, the Power supplies always drew a bit more than calculated. Not a lot, but always more. The bit about oscillation came from him because, as he pointed out, the more FR he could get out of his newer oscilloscopes, the better he was able to ID the offending RF. As he eliminated the sources of the RF, the warmth increased in his all transistorized designs, becoming a bit more like tube gear.
Subharmonics, he felt was the key, but removing the very high RF also
helped the lower frequencies as he could find nothing in the lower audio bandwidth.I use a giga tweeter, operating in the megahertz range. Works well although I can hear absolutely nothing coming out of the piezo element (well most of the time, doesn't work on certain models).
Again , puzzled I asked around. Same guy remembered the cap and resistor thingy, and then suggested because the negative feedback which most amps employ it could enter and contaminate a circuit. Amps like the Spectral advertise an FR of basically 0 to light ( it seems).
He suggested that since you couldn't hear it any way, why not dissipate that RF energy into work pushing the piezo tweeter....Of course YMMV and FWIW.
Edits: 04/11/15
The mumbo jumbo just keeps rolling on..... and on......and on....
So you are saying you do not understand this statement: "There are a few who view this RFI as entering the circuit via the feedback circuit. "
If so then you have no business commenting in the thread. So do you understand it or not? If you disagree say so and why. Otherwise.........
E
T
I saw what he said, don't necessarily agree because I don't really see where a feedback circuit would induce RFI. Maybe it could pick up stray voltage and cause spikes but good practice in laying out a piece should have prevented that from happening. In fact it would be more beneficial to fix the problem at the source than to band aid it with gimmicks. Actually I felt it was more of a response to your answer and he should have posted accordingly.
I also do not see where a cap across speaker terminals would be of benefit to the signal, let alone one with a dropping resistor in parallel. But whatever makes you sleep good at night.
The intent of my post was to try to put out the theory of what is being done. Just in case somebody actually wants to try to understand what they are doing and not blindly following.
And yes, it is mumbo jumbo.
Edits: 04/11/15
""I also do not see where a cap across speaker terminals would be of benefit to the signal, let alone one with a dropping resistor in parallel. But whatever makes you sleep good at night. ""
Check again ace. The above is wrong. No resistor in parallel. There is nothing gimmicky about this R/C circuit. It's been around for sometime and is sold by several companies today.So we're finding out more and more including your mistakes and mumbo jumbo. I say keep digging your own grave. Keep the "wrong" coming. I guess the schematic with a whole two parts in it was too much for you.
E
T
Edits: 04/11/15
And where is this schematic you speak of? Just shooting off your mouth??
The picture put up by the OP shows the device across speaker terminals. What do you say to that Mr smarty pantz?
In the link he provided under DIY (like the title of his post) and I'm done with you if you haven't even looked yet attempted to make a fruitless claim.
E
T
Above is my magnifier on a crossover for Hawthorne Silver Iris drivers.
Makes an audible difference.SCHEMATIC @ link below
this thing really works. try it.
Edits: 04/11/15 04/11/15
What is the purpose of the copper foil over the thing?
It doesn't look like it is connected to anything?
Have you tried a bigger cap?
0.022µF seems too small.
With a 22nF cap it is a 724kHz low pass filter. A 47nF cap would be a 338kHz low pass filter. I am disposed to believe it would be a random event if either cap had any effect at all.
Yes by experience you have to try between 0.1; 0.2 and 0,3uf
Quality of the cap is crucial too!
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