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In Reply to: RE: LOL!!! oh Lord! posted by unclestu on March 31, 2015 at 19:42:22
So what? I don't think I argued against anything you've written in your response, except I would take issue with the notion that magnetism is a force yearning to be free, as you describe it. By the way, what about magnetic leads on resistors and capacitors? If you're going to replace all the darn screws, you've wasted your time if you don't also replace all those other magnetizable elements. And in DG's amp, the screws were stainless, whereas it's highly probable that his amp still contains capacitors and resistors with truly ferrous leads.
I asked DG whether he had actually measured field strengths in and around his amplifier before vs after changing from SS (not iron) screws to plastic. I doubt he's done that, but have you? That would tell both of us something.
Follow Ups:
C-mon Lew, it may have been some time, but the magnetic lines of force I refer to want to complete the loop from north to south poles of the magnet, fundamental for any magnetic object. Capture a portion of that loop and the field still wants to exit to complete the loop. That's how magnetism works. You don't only have a single ended magnet, say north pole, only you have TWO.AS for leads and such: ask yourself, which is easier to replace? But I seem to get the feeling what you are stating that the leads on resistors and caps are more important for EMF. Since this is YOUR contention (seemingly) why not buy a gaussmeter and measure it and report your findings? Why bother to state your unsupported speculation.
Also ever wonder why some manufacturers place their transformers outboard?
PS I do have a Lakeshore gaussmeter, BTW, and did some measurements long ago but I did not record any numbers. Why don't you get something similar since you are so adamant about the subject,
Edits: 04/02/15 04/02/15
You wrote, "C-mon Lew, it may have been some time, but the magnetic lines of force I refer to want to complete the loop from north to south poles of the magnet, fundamental for any magnetic object. Capture a portion of that loop and the field still wants to exit to complete the loop. That's how magnetism works. You don't only have a single ended magnet, say north pole, only you have TWO."
Where did I say there was only one pole to a magnet? What's lacking in this response is what I am looking for; how does the issue of whether magnetic lines of force "complete a loop", or don't complete a loop, affect the sound of the amplifier under question, where the magnetic field you posit has to do with the minimal ferrous content of the chassis screws? They are all at ground potential, or should be.
You are SOOOOOOO correct. Something is definitely missing, and I find myself trying to explain fundamentals to someone who wishes to ignore them.Let me end all further discussion with you with several points. Nothing personal here, It's just I have better things to do.
Magnetism does NOT extend only a few inches away. Again pick up those children's toys with ferrous flakes and see how far away you can extend the range of the toy flakes. That's one blatant example, another is sit back and look at the range of the earth's magnetic field. It may be weak but it extends many, many miles....
Now, If the loop is not completed, magnetism, as a force, will be exerting induction WITHIN the material the field is captured in. The natural inclination is magnetism wished to complete the field or it exerts an electrical component to the material holding it
If you don't understand induction, please, please review your 8th and 9th grade science......
Again nothing personal
flakes,It's pretty impressive considering you are also fighting gravity.
Edits: 04/03/15
that was pretty f-ing personal.
Insult when you cannot explain is always a good way to end a discussion. Maybe you don't understand my question: What is possibly affected by the tiny magnetic field possibly radiated by nearly non-ferrous screws holding together a chassis that should be at ground potential (not to mention, what is there to magnetize them?), and why do you seem to care less about ferrous leads on resistors and capacitors in the same amplifier?
Like most other forces of nature, magnetism follows in inverse square law, the force will be inversely proportional to the square of the distance. Thus a tiny force like the one you fear will be really really tiny very quickly as you move away from the magnetized screw.
1. Magnetism induced in ferrous material constitutes work being exerted by the magnetic source: hence we have something like transformer laminations or motors(electrical, of course ) for that matter.
2. Inverse square law ONLY applies if the magnetic force is in air. All bets are off if the field enters a magnetically permeable substance: Check out the specs for Mu metal and metglas.
3. Whether or not magnetic leads are more important is totally immaterial to the discussion ( if you care to call it that). Magnetism in the leads does not really affect the fact that magnetism in the chassis still exists. Want to eliminate the magnetic induction?: turn your gear off....the entire planet emits a magnetic field, you don't see me trying to eliminate that field even though it does have an effect on electronics (last generation Panasonic and Sony CRT sets had adjustments if the set screen was oriented n/s or e/w).
4. In tweaking, one does what he can: cost and labor of course being important parameters to consider. What's easier: changing screws or changing resistors? How many resistors have you changed in your lifetime? I've totally rebuilt several preamps, QS full function as well as CJ's but the cost is extremely high unless you are doing the work yourself. Couple with the accumulating of the necessary values, takes a lot of time.
5. I am not an armchair theorist. I try things, and, yes,I have tried non ferrous leads, having custom capacitors literally built to my specs from Southern F-Dyne. Do you just catalog search or do you actually try things? My recommendations are not theoretical but based on actual experience. Theory comes only after extensive experimentation. If I haven't tried a tweak I don't comment about it, as I really don't know.
And with that, I bid you adieu
Lew,All I did was test every manufacturer's amplifier SS screw against a magnet to feel the level of attraction as earlier described and was surprised that only 20% showed no attraction/ repulsion whatsoever. Interestingly the substitution of nylon/ plastic for those 20% contributed as much proportionate sonic improvement as the responsive 80%. Don't know if that helps...
DG
p.s. Surely magnetism in amplifiers is a force that needs to be contained immediately around the Toroidal transformer by a shield but denied freedom to subversively degrade component performance through AC/ signal wires and SS screws? Sound improvements from twisting positive/ negative wires, enclosing ground-wire in 3M AB 5100S, and switching out the screws acting as disruptive local magnetic storage areas indicate that to me. (Incidentally the necessarily untwisted nature of ribbon cables has long seemed a point of vulnerability...)
Edits: 04/02/15 04/02/15
Thanks again for your very reasonable nature. A lot of guys get pissed off during discussions like this, where none of us really know the others. The subject of EM is much more complex than we are making it. I am not saying that it is not desireable to shield from EMI; I am only saying that I doubt your chassis screws could possibly have been doing much damage as generators per se of EMI. Certainly nothing that would be audible in your system. You may say that you did the work and hear the difference. To that I would have no argument except to say that there is such a thing as observer bias, and it's very powerful, especially when a guru like Uncle Stu endorses the work. In the end, you have a subjective impression. But to prove that I am wrong, someone would have to measure the EMI fields in and around your amplifier before vs after the screws were changed. Finally, this hobby drives all of us to do kooky things; I am hardly perfect in that regard.
Lew,
Appreciate the calm, logical place from which you speak, and, given the strength of your belief, can quite understand your natural desire to reject my experience as real. It's the only way to square the circle...
So consider, firstly, that this is not UncleStu's tweak but a cross-application of my own from his speaker basket tweak to the amplifier from which I literally had no expectation prior to testing. Secondly, a discerning audiophile (well-developed hearing skills), familiar with my system sound, immediately volunteered without prompting: "This is exactly like live music!" an opinion that did not change over time. He subsequently listened to the sound from the first above version of these felt-surrounds and was quite impressed by the treble focus and base de-fragmentation but commented that the sound-stage was too narrow. As a consequence I followed UncleStu's advice on enlarging the apertures and followed my own hunch in slightly reducing the number of layers which did the trick as that fellow later agreed.
The only thing I trust is what I hear with my own ears and testing, needless to say, produces infinitely more failures than successes. UncleStu tends to recommend tweaks whose sound improvement I can replicate here but that is not invariably the case. And I have no expectation either way and routinely express respect and gratitude to him because tweaking by testing and the ear is an under-appreciated path here from which he has generously contributed for a long time. To me this path is the true north since the alternative of borrowed opinions and technical explanations can be unreliable and often left me going around in logical circles at the beginning.
These two tweaks are real and work well in reality even if some aspect of their concept or implementation starts in the imagination!
DG
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