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In Reply to: RE: Some experiments on Crystals C posted by unclestu on March 22, 2015 at 15:06:07
Size appears to matter with these crystal tweaks, at least insofar as RFI control, which to my thinking is really all that's going on. Kosher salt is larger in size than regular Mortons. (In fact, different salts are recommended differently in cooking and brining for this reason too.)
You are adding a crystal to another crystal. I do not know the characteristics of common salt (NaCl) electrically, but cane sugar crystals, as I recall are piezoelectric to some extent.
From my experiments years ago it was the piezoelectric and sometimes pyroelectric characteristics of various crystals that had the sonic impact via controlling RFI. Read my and Al Sekela's old posts. There is good theoretical reasoning here.
Follow Ups:
My point exactly. Simply tasting them yields different results.Bear in mind I am not using salt crystals like quartz. I am covering the quartz with salt, brushing it off and then placing them on components. There may be some salt dust, but not much.
I believe this goes beyond the piezo effect.
Edits: 03/25/15
Stu, treating the raw crystals had noticeable impact when Al and I experimented.
Our theory was that the RFI electrically excited the crystal (reverse effect of piezo)causing it to convert the energy to vibration or heat or both briefly. Then it can bounce back (just like a pogo stick) with less energy, some having dissipated.
Treatments we used were specifically designed to take the converted energy and turn that into a form that would not be reabsorbed on the rebound, thus "wicking" if you see the analogy. It's really mechanical damping in action, though.
Any treatment that will do that will help the crystal damp/dissipate the RFI.
I have no idea how a dusting with NaCl would do that, but if you can repeatedly demonstrate the impact, then more power to you (or less power as your desire may be, LOL)
not to take anything away from you and Al,but i believe i was the first to post of the piezo effect of quartz and similar crystals. Had some royal battles with GK over this over on iso, but the truth is, it doesn't really matter in the long run.
What matters is that we agree on one aspect of crystal use. I used oil treatment for a totally different reason. I placed the quartz or quartz type crystal in an oil well (contact lens cases works great) because it lowers the specific gravity the crystal sees. In other words, it moves more readily in response to EMF forces, being sort of floating in the oil. Very thin silicon works fine also and both import a greater top end energy to the system. Hell even water works to a degree.
That being said, the salt treatment, if you read carefully, imparts greater dynamics and bass. This is an indication that it is working in a different manner. I do not know the working mechanism at the moment, so unfortunately I can not pass anything useful at the moment.
I do believe it is ionic in nature but it seems to work even when the salt is kept in a separate zip lock bag. This is puzzling as the plastic ought to block any electron ( beta particles as well as alpha ones).
Again,I simply reporting data points. Positive as well as negative responses all help define the effect better. The permutations involved are far too great for one person to experiment with particularly in regards to the time required.
But perhaps I am misunderstanding your post?
Yes, you are misunderstanding the intent of my post, Stu.
I'm not claiming the invention (this from my research was known way back in the mid-1900s to radio folks) of the crystal tweak. There were many of us experimenting and you have been one of the earliest in all this stuff!
Not being able to quite visualize what you're doing makes it harder to comment on your method or results.
I'm just pointing out the theory we used that worked years ago with crystals.
Obviously, it's not the only way to have an impact sonically. Al and I only explored some and kept with those variants that seemed to both work and fit the theory. I have done none since Al's passing.
Hell, there were crystal sculptures out in the room space that at least one guy claimed did the trick, which I always viewed with skepticism!
But you did seem to be asking for some clue as to how/why your tweak worked, unless I misread your posts, and I chimed in with what little I know.
I positively detest the the term New Age. I am not a believer in mystic arts. However there are effects from the use of crystal which affect the human perception. I should not I have been collecting crystal specimens for many decades although most use in my listening room has been detrimental rather than positive for some odd reason.
I am quite familiar with the piezo effects, but this seems to transcend the piezo effect. As you know salt is certainly not a piezo electric crystal.
However, the use of salt lamps and such point to the ionizing effects of certain rocks, but even at that little is known on the effects on audio.
My BGT and Bud Purvines litz wire tweak all creak supposedly reservoir of ions. How it affects circuit is something else, as no electrical theory covers their application
Stu, I may have been one of the first to push the Purvine tweak onto AA, and it did indeed work very well for me. But honestly I never understood how it could possibly have done so!
The whole ionic theory cluster goes right over my head. I've heard it in everything from scientific explanations to New Age claptrap. I don't doubt ions, ionic effects, etc. I just cannot wrap my head around some of this enough to explain it to myself!
Let's not even try for quantum mechanics! Giggle......
Winston Smith got annoyed at my reluctance (actually read laziness) to try the Purvine tweak and actually made up a set for me to try.
I was shocked. Based on all my physics and stuff there was nothing to fall back on for an explanation. Since then I have been much more careful about experimenting even with the weirdest concepts and very careful not to discount anything.
The feared word quantum seems to crop up more and more these days, but what is shocking is that subatomic qualities can make audible differences, it seems. What I can not fathom is that the human perception can detect such changes (or at least some of us can).
Try the salt tratment, I would be honored to hear your impresssions
It's been years since I read all that theory on auditory perception, but human hearing is actually the most "exquisite" of the senses.
We can distinguish about 10,000 different tones and changes in them and volume in a few femtoseconds (50,000th of seconds for those reading who don't know this alreeady).
What we can perceive is utterly remarkable.
Then take into consideration those other intertwined sensory pathways. For example, how is it possible to perceive below 20hz and above 20Khz, but there is enough evidence that we can. We don't perceive them precisely via the ear canal, it seems, but we do register them in the body somehow and the brain interprets and interpolates them with the normal hearing range.
As to quantum mechanics, what little I did understand in college and since scares the shit out of me!
Unclestu, I'm out of the audiophilia nervosa stage, so unlikely to try anything like the salt. Not a reflection on you, just something that happened to me based on life circumstances.
We can detect volume changes of sounds with "a few femtoseconds"
Is that right? Can we see some evidence?
Just that a femtosecond is one millionth of one billionth of a second (10 to the minus 15 seconds)
To put this into context, a 20kHz sine wave, one cycle, lasts 5 billion femtoseconds.
I thought my ears were good but apparently not...
You're right! My confusion. The research I read said a few 50,000ths of a second. Where I conflated that with "femto" I don't know. Hell, if my memory is getting that bad, maybe it was 50 thousdandths of a second.
Still damn sharp, even if my memory and your hearing don't quite measure up, LOL.
My error, so strike that.
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