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1. If you do not believe they work, please ignore the remainder of the post. You'd be only wasting both your time and mine.
2. This is very preliminary and I have no idea how long the effect will last.
3. The experiment was performed on quartz based crystals. Application for other types is unknown and effects unknown.
What I have done is to place quartz amethyst and rutile quartz in a zip lock bag full of salt. I used kosher salt but I do not believe it makes a difference. Salt, Na Cl, is highly ionic by nature. I believe it releases some electrons to the crystals.
On the amethyst, which in my system has a brighter presentation, it evened out the frequency response quite nicely after about 10 minute break in even though I had the amethyst in the bag for only an hour.
The change is not earth shaking, but quite noticeable
Have fun and be glad to hear your experiences
Follow Ups:
I tried putting a clear quartz crystal on the front of my phono cartridge, like the Black Diamond tweak. Now having my own crystal is far cheaper than buying it from Lloyd Walker.
Yes, it does work. Immediately noticeable. Analogue lovers should give it a try.
A gentleman is best defined as someone who knows how to play the accordion ... and doesn't.
Thanks for the info !!!
I neglected some things. I use kosher salt not because I am Jewish. A while back ( long time) I noticed on the food network most chefs recommend using kosher salt. I use sea salts and other for flavoring my food but never tried kosher and actually tried a comparison as salt is relatively cheap. All various salts have a slightly different flavor as to be expected.However, to my surprise the common Morton's iodized salt had the least saltiness. I even tried chemical reagent grade salt, BTW, very salty. Kosher was very similar and cheap (I'm a cheapskate as I have admitted many times).
One would not expect salts to have such variation in taste and taste intensity.
I haven't experimented with Morton's but a molecular biologist explained to me that while some salts contain impurities ( Himalayan and sea salts for example), lowering the salt flavor, Morton's famous slogan offers a clue. "When it rains it pours." additives make the Morton's salt resist hygroscopic effects of humidity.
Salt may make a strong ionic bond but it dissolves easily in the presence of water. IF it resists humidity, then it is harder to dissolve, particularly in the mouth.
After some additional thinking, this hygroscopic quality can work in both directions. The presence of salt can pull any moisture from the crystal. Crystals, after all, are natural substances. They have inclusions and fissures, both macro and micro. Could it be drying out the crystal ?
On the other hand the salt treatment works well on aqua aura, a gold flashed quartz crystal. The flashing is only a few molecules thick at most and being gold is very porous. Leads me to want to believe that the salt molecules are picked up by the crystal and breaking down in the presence of humidity.
I am not certain of course. Pure speculation
Edits: 03/22/15
Size appears to matter with these crystal tweaks, at least insofar as RFI control, which to my thinking is really all that's going on. Kosher salt is larger in size than regular Mortons. (In fact, different salts are recommended differently in cooking and brining for this reason too.)
You are adding a crystal to another crystal. I do not know the characteristics of common salt (NaCl) electrically, but cane sugar crystals, as I recall are piezoelectric to some extent.
From my experiments years ago it was the piezoelectric and sometimes pyroelectric characteristics of various crystals that had the sonic impact via controlling RFI. Read my and Al Sekela's old posts. There is good theoretical reasoning here.
My point exactly. Simply tasting them yields different results.Bear in mind I am not using salt crystals like quartz. I am covering the quartz with salt, brushing it off and then placing them on components. There may be some salt dust, but not much.
I believe this goes beyond the piezo effect.
Edits: 03/25/15
Stu, treating the raw crystals had noticeable impact when Al and I experimented.
Our theory was that the RFI electrically excited the crystal (reverse effect of piezo)causing it to convert the energy to vibration or heat or both briefly. Then it can bounce back (just like a pogo stick) with less energy, some having dissipated.
Treatments we used were specifically designed to take the converted energy and turn that into a form that would not be reabsorbed on the rebound, thus "wicking" if you see the analogy. It's really mechanical damping in action, though.
Any treatment that will do that will help the crystal damp/dissipate the RFI.
I have no idea how a dusting with NaCl would do that, but if you can repeatedly demonstrate the impact, then more power to you (or less power as your desire may be, LOL)
not to take anything away from you and Al,but i believe i was the first to post of the piezo effect of quartz and similar crystals. Had some royal battles with GK over this over on iso, but the truth is, it doesn't really matter in the long run.
What matters is that we agree on one aspect of crystal use. I used oil treatment for a totally different reason. I placed the quartz or quartz type crystal in an oil well (contact lens cases works great) because it lowers the specific gravity the crystal sees. In other words, it moves more readily in response to EMF forces, being sort of floating in the oil. Very thin silicon works fine also and both import a greater top end energy to the system. Hell even water works to a degree.
That being said, the salt treatment, if you read carefully, imparts greater dynamics and bass. This is an indication that it is working in a different manner. I do not know the working mechanism at the moment, so unfortunately I can not pass anything useful at the moment.
I do believe it is ionic in nature but it seems to work even when the salt is kept in a separate zip lock bag. This is puzzling as the plastic ought to block any electron ( beta particles as well as alpha ones).
Again,I simply reporting data points. Positive as well as negative responses all help define the effect better. The permutations involved are far too great for one person to experiment with particularly in regards to the time required.
But perhaps I am misunderstanding your post?
Yes, you are misunderstanding the intent of my post, Stu.
I'm not claiming the invention (this from my research was known way back in the mid-1900s to radio folks) of the crystal tweak. There were many of us experimenting and you have been one of the earliest in all this stuff!
Not being able to quite visualize what you're doing makes it harder to comment on your method or results.
I'm just pointing out the theory we used that worked years ago with crystals.
Obviously, it's not the only way to have an impact sonically. Al and I only explored some and kept with those variants that seemed to both work and fit the theory. I have done none since Al's passing.
Hell, there were crystal sculptures out in the room space that at least one guy claimed did the trick, which I always viewed with skepticism!
But you did seem to be asking for some clue as to how/why your tweak worked, unless I misread your posts, and I chimed in with what little I know.
I positively detest the the term New Age. I am not a believer in mystic arts. However there are effects from the use of crystal which affect the human perception. I should not I have been collecting crystal specimens for many decades although most use in my listening room has been detrimental rather than positive for some odd reason.
I am quite familiar with the piezo effects, but this seems to transcend the piezo effect. As you know salt is certainly not a piezo electric crystal.
However, the use of salt lamps and such point to the ionizing effects of certain rocks, but even at that little is known on the effects on audio.
My BGT and Bud Purvines litz wire tweak all creak supposedly reservoir of ions. How it affects circuit is something else, as no electrical theory covers their application
Stu, I may have been one of the first to push the Purvine tweak onto AA, and it did indeed work very well for me. But honestly I never understood how it could possibly have done so!
The whole ionic theory cluster goes right over my head. I've heard it in everything from scientific explanations to New Age claptrap. I don't doubt ions, ionic effects, etc. I just cannot wrap my head around some of this enough to explain it to myself!
Let's not even try for quantum mechanics! Giggle......
Winston Smith got annoyed at my reluctance (actually read laziness) to try the Purvine tweak and actually made up a set for me to try.
I was shocked. Based on all my physics and stuff there was nothing to fall back on for an explanation. Since then I have been much more careful about experimenting even with the weirdest concepts and very careful not to discount anything.
The feared word quantum seems to crop up more and more these days, but what is shocking is that subatomic qualities can make audible differences, it seems. What I can not fathom is that the human perception can detect such changes (or at least some of us can).
Try the salt tratment, I would be honored to hear your impresssions
It's been years since I read all that theory on auditory perception, but human hearing is actually the most "exquisite" of the senses.
We can distinguish about 10,000 different tones and changes in them and volume in a few femtoseconds (50,000th of seconds for those reading who don't know this alreeady).
What we can perceive is utterly remarkable.
Then take into consideration those other intertwined sensory pathways. For example, how is it possible to perceive below 20hz and above 20Khz, but there is enough evidence that we can. We don't perceive them precisely via the ear canal, it seems, but we do register them in the body somehow and the brain interprets and interpolates them with the normal hearing range.
As to quantum mechanics, what little I did understand in college and since scares the shit out of me!
Unclestu, I'm out of the audiophilia nervosa stage, so unlikely to try anything like the salt. Not a reflection on you, just something that happened to me based on life circumstances.
We can detect volume changes of sounds with "a few femtoseconds"
Is that right? Can we see some evidence?
Just that a femtosecond is one millionth of one billionth of a second (10 to the minus 15 seconds)
To put this into context, a 20kHz sine wave, one cycle, lasts 5 billion femtoseconds.
I thought my ears were good but apparently not...
You're right! My confusion. The research I read said a few 50,000ths of a second. Where I conflated that with "femto" I don't know. Hell, if my memory is getting that bad, maybe it was 50 thousdandths of a second.
Still damn sharp, even if my memory and your hearing don't quite measure up, LOL.
My error, so strike that.
I can't see where you mentioned where you put the crystals.
;-)
I first posted on crystals over a decade ago on this forum and in the past couple of years there have been numerous posts, about types of crystals to use, locations and sizes, etc. etc.This salt treatment is for those who have already tried crystals, liked it and seek further improvement.
One of the issues with using crystals is that there are so many factors which influence the audible effects. Size, obvious, and crystal type ( amethyst, aqua aura, etc.). It galls me to have to recommend experimentation because too few readers on this forum will ever do so or even try the crystals as evidenced by the many replies.
That being said, I am simply sharing a data point. If Awe-d-o-file and Maher want to take my ideas and run with them, I am not upset, because I believe the collective sharing of experiences will further advance audio. My tweaks are pretty much extremely low budget and to my ears work well. If others wish to ignore it, so be it.
At any rate, to answer your question, you should experiment with crystals after digging through the archives. Where ever you find they work in your system, take the same crystals and place them in bag full of salt for several days and then listen to them again.
For me it was easy to make a control as I bought some cheap quartz and amethyst bead necklaces so I could treat some and have the remainder for comparison and a control.
Truth be, I was not prepared for the difference I heard.
I just want to hear from others who feel up to trying this
Edits: 03/21/15
,
Please keep 'em coming.
Many of us really appreciate your tireless efforts to push the audio envelope.
Again, many thanks.
Cheers,
WS
.
+1 "Unclestu's posts always appreciated"
~D
Wherever you go there you are.
.
nt
Laughing...
Stu, are you sure that you are not placing these "crystals" up your nose?
The crystals, I should have added, were allowed to simply roll in the bag of dry salt, then taken out and placed where they normally were. Saline soak was suggested but the time to dry would be really long, although since crystals are natural, I suspect they would have micro fissures and I am not comfortable with saline leaching out my electronics. I would have to do long term trials before recommending.
Initial try at leaving 4 mm amethyst in salt for an hour lead to enhanced performance for about 2 1-2 hours.
Hi Unclestu,
What I can add is that I use salt lamps for years in my lisetening room and appreciate it's effects on sound
:)
There is some kind of interaction between the salt n quartz. They need to be placed adjacent to each other in order to get an improvement in sound, after which the quartz is "charged", so to speak, although the length of the effect is in question. As a matter of fact, salt alone has limited affect and seems to lack any piezo electric properties on which the quartz based stones are predicated.
Salt lamps are supposed to generate ions. There are many other devices which also do so: ionic hair dryers and curlers, for example. These are based on the fact that tourmaline is pyro electric.
Howdy unclestu,
Acoustic Revive of Japan has produced a number of devices based on the use of quartz and tourmaline. Interestingly, they offer a power cable with a jacket impregnated with tourmaline that's on my DIY must-try list.
BTW, don't let wet blanket tossing naysayers bug yourself enough to interfere with sharing your ideas and insights within the forum. I hope you are feeling better these days.
Best regards,
Duster
I am trying my best to ignore naysayers, as it seems many will say impossible without ever trying. Not believing is a personal issue, in my thinking. Seems like they just to bait, though. That's fine, by me....but most have absolutely nothing positive to contribute.
Have you checked out Bybee's website about carbon C13 isotope. In my experience it is one of the greatest improvements one can add to any audio system. It can be phenomenally expensive however. His Power cord is, gulp, only $1600.
I am fortunate in that I am good friends with some molecular biologists and they actually use this stuff as biological tracers. So I managed to purloin a gram or two. IT is fantastic stuff and I understand Jack is applying for patents currently....
What is interesting thus far, is the salt treatment of quartz makes it sound fairly similar to the amethyst although the treated amethyst does sound better. Differences between stones seem to be minimized. So I have this bag of samples on a salt bag, but its going to take time to go through them all in a controlled manner. My posting, in a way, is a plea for help.
There is absolutely NO way I can go through all the possible permutations not to mention measure the length of the effect. Hell I don't really know the working mechanism yet, but that often comes more apparent through negative results.
Thus far it works superbly on power ends, IC ends, over speaker magnets, motors and transformers. Its kinda scary, in a way. Bybee has found a way to impregnate the surface layer of conductors with C13.
The scary part is this is all on the subatomic level. I don't think the general lay public can absorb the fact that events on the subatomic level can create an audible change
The scary part is this is all on the subatomic level. I don't think the general lay public can absorb the fact that events on the subatomic level can create an audible change
Hi, Unclestu....so happy you mention this and put it into words. I've suspected this for years, and feel strongly that's exactly what's occurring with so many products and components, especially as it relates to cabling and the myriad material interactions. L,C, and R are on the proverbial surface....so much more is occurring at extremely low levels that, at this time, cannot be measured....that is, unless one has access to the equipment found at Lawrence-Livermore or Brookhaven.
Thank you for the continued support over the years, no matter how outlandish my posting have been.
A few words now and then do mean a lot but i am sure as a fellow dealer you know what I mean
I am always learning from your extensive knowledge and willingness to take risks. And you always explain your methodology, and resultants when possible. If only others left their ears (and minds) open....
Considering the flack that you (and others) receive by doing the heavy lifting, I'm reminded of a great parable, and lesson:
"A mind is like a parachute. It works best when open."
Stu, I've read your C13 posts and I can't find where you say what you actually do with the stuff. Please explain.. (I understand what bybee does, but you had some salts, right? - so what do you do? Sprinkle in your amp?? ;)
Hi Unclestu!
You forgot something about salt: it dries the atmosphere around so salt is a 2in1 tool against static electricity, ions and dry air!
:)
I brush off the salt when placing the crystals on my components.
The working mechanism is still speculative, however, and that much is very true. I anticipate I will playing with this effect for many weeks to come trying to get a hold on it.
" I believe it (NaCl) releases some electrons to the crystals."
I don't think so. Both Na+ and Cl- have complete outer electron shells. Prying another electron from an Na+ ion requires quite a bit of energy, same goes for Cl-. Chlorine is very electronegative and Cl- is very stable.
"It is better to remain silent and thought a fool, then speak and remove all doubt." A. Lincoln
I am not interested in a pissing contest and will no longer respond to any further of your messages.
One additional word,though: hygroscopic
This forum is getting worse every year. More and more porchdicks and keyboard bullies. I don't have a problem with that per se, but more the bullies that turn crybaby when their intended victim or another inmate chimes in. The owner/administator makes the rules. We all get to play in their sandbox by their allowance.
Knowledge = Pissing Contest ???
JKT was merely stating chemistry information, NOT making negative comments on Mr unclestu's crystals. Rule #1 of Mr Unclestu's list does not come into play.
Reread his post and your rule/list/bullet and you'll see he was contributing, not "wasting your time". Don't even get me started on "wasting your time" about forum posting. If you are here, you have time to waste.
I know, I know... Why am I responding?
This is the second one these rude posts/replies in two days and I felt compelled to voice my opinion.
The other rude/entitled/dickish thread is in the Tube Forum and involves Kevin Deal publicly threatening some guy for what seems to be innocent ignorance and not intentional fraud. I responded in that thread too. Is it my business? No. But these are public forums and anybody can respond who cares to. I understand why you started your thread with a rule/guideline that no one may comment if they don't agree with you. This subject is polarized and you were bound to get comments and questions from both sides. I am not going to comment on your faith/belief in crystals, but you don't get to decide who can and cannot respond in a public forum.
Sorry for the rant. Two porchdicks in two days set me off. This is about being a decent person, not crystals or tube knowledge (Deal's rude post in Tube Forum). Not sorry for my opinion.
look up hygroscopic.... I'm not here to teach chemistry and practicality.
.
"look up hygroscopic.... I'm not here to teach chemistry and practicality."
Did you read my post? It had nothing to do with crystals or chemistry. I was trying to make a point about online civility.
Thank you for so eloquently providing another example of bad behavior.
I really didn't want to jump back into this but...
If you are going to present scientific explanations for your observations you need to be more precise in your terminology. You stated that the salt "released electrons" to the crystal. To me that implies some form of oxidation/reduction reaction. Given how tightly bound those electrons are to the salt ions, that's not conceivable. You respond with the one word "hygroscopic". No further explanation. I assume you are implying that the salt will attract moisture and CONDUCT electrons. Where do these electrons come from, no explanation. What's supplying the Free Energy to facilitate this movement of electrons? No explanation. I'm curious now. I want to know. Explain it to me. Don't be afraid that I won't have the technical cops to understand. I have undergraduate degrees in Math and Chemistry from the Univ. of Mo. - Col. and a Masters degree in Chemistry from Stanford Univ.
"It is better to remain silent and thought a fool, then speak and remove all doubt." A. Lincoln
salt makes strong ionic bonds between the Na and Cl. Still in the presence of water, probably the most common solvent on the planet, and something like salt, being hygroscopic, will pull water from existing humidity(quite obviously the amount will vary with the environment) and break down those bonds.Salt dissolves very readily in water................
Strong ionic bonds, yes, but go figure when dissolved in water....
Again I am not inclined to argue anymore. and I will not post any further to this line.
Edits: 03/25/15
An interesting experiment to try would be to put the crystals in some kind of desiccator to dry them. See whether you get the same or similar effects to salt.
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