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In Reply to: RE: Got some herbies spike decoupling gliders...jury is still out. posted by Audiolover718 on January 20, 2015 at 22:40:24
You might consider replacing the stranded copper Mogami cables in your system with solid core copper designs which tend to present a more assertive soundstage and imaging. I find Mogami cables to sound very polite/soft by nature and lack inner detail and dynamics vs. various solid core cables.
Follow Ups:
Duster,Are you saying I'm hearing more of the mogami speaker cables limitations now that I have the gliders? Maybe I'll try the morrow cables on the speakers. I've upgraded my mogami intetconnects to the morrow and they were a huge improvement over the mogami.
Edits: 01/21/15
lots of times changing a piece of gear affects the sound and then another change can also have an effect. Duster recommended a glass TosLink for me. It was and is great. However things I changed afterward made me want to "undo" some of what that cable did. I think that is what is talking about.
I put Herbie's gliders under the spikes on the bottom of my audio rack and the change was very interesting. Bass improved a lot, especially the lowest octaves. I felt like the system got warmer sounding overall which it did, no doubt. Soon after I added the above TosLink which added HF which was nice and sort of rebalanced the sound to my ear. But like I said other things I also did after that added more HF to the point it was a little much. So sometimes we need to make other changes after implementation of a given item.
Synergy
E
T
Based on your description of politeness, it could be the sonic signature of the loudspeakers has changed in a manner that may be better served by a more assertive sounding speaker cable that helps provide a more rock-solid soundstage and imaging, better dynamics, as well as improved low-level information. I would expect the same level of betterment you found via your interconnect cable upgrade would also apply to an appropriate speaker cable upgrade. I certainly believe it's worth a try. You also might consider experimenting with various audiophile power cords and other vibration control devices placed under other gear in your audio system.
Hi Duster,
Do you have any recommendations for solid core speaker cable? My system is on the warm side. I might want to give it a try. Would DIY twisted pair do (with good insolation)?
Dave
You can make superb speaker cable with solid core wire. A combination of at least two gauges is superior to any single size wire. If you have a long run, the total gauge should be larger than what is needed for a short run, under 6ft or so. Short run: 18 and 22ga combined for each leg. Long run: 16 and 20ga combined. Twisting pairs of conductors in speaker cable is not as important as it is for low level signals, but it's still a good thing to do to keep the bundle tidy and compact as well as resistant to vibration. No need for a fancy jacket, unless looks are important. You can use small lengths of heatshrink or simple bands of electrical tape to hold the wires together in the cables. The cables will be pretty stiff, and you want to avoid sharp bends.
I recommend Neotech OCC copper with teflon insulation. Avoid PVC. Avoid silver plating. Not gonna be cheap, but it will be as good as the most expensive cable available. Use decent connectors. Avoid brass.
Peace,
Tom E
I have a short run. That is a very interesting design and certainly worth a try. Thanks, Tom.
Dave
IMO, the largest advisable *solid core* copper wire for a 2-conductor speaker cable application is 18 AWG which provides a trade-off between skin effect and bass articulation. However, the relatively high-resistance of a small gauge 18 AWG twisted pair does not provide a large enough conductor cross section to provide adequate instantaneous current demand and damping factor (amplifier grip) from a high performance perspective. A large aggregate gauge cable design involving multiple small gauge solid core wires (maximum 22 AWG is often advisable) provides a larger cross section with less resistance while avoiding audible skin effect of large gauge solid core wire. Litz wire and quasi-litz designs are the norm when it comes to high performance speaker cable designs that implement solid core wire.
Thanks, Duster!I have to keep the capacitance down because my amp of choice, the Threshold CAS-1, does not have a Zobel network. I could always add a Zobel and then I wouldn't have to worry. On the plus side, I only need a meter or so in length.
So sticking to your formula, Cardas makes a 15.5 awg and an 11.5 awg Litz hookup wire. The price is reasonable at Parts Connexion. Would either of these be suitable in a twisted pair or parallel run?
Dave
Edits: 01/23/15
A caveat of litz wire is increased capacitance vs. single strand solid core wire, and while litz wire is fine for hookup wire, it's prone to severe cable resonance if assertive vibration damping is not involved. If you wish to experiment with DIY wire for short-length speaker cables, I would opt for 18 AWG solid core OCC copper with Teflon insulation twisted pair wrapped with PTFE Teflon plumbers tape rather than litz wire. However, I would rather suggest experimenting with bulk length audiophile speaker cable since your length requirement is so short (less expensive than the need for longer speaker cables). What make/model speaker cable are you using at this time?
The DIY solid core twisted pair is guaranteed to be better because I am currently using the basic parallel conductor "lamp cord" style 16 GA speaker cable. However, the rearranging my system for shorter leads (in process now) will allow me to use an ancient pair of TOL Monster Cable M1 speaker cable. (stranded twisted pair, grey out sheath with lots of damping.) But that is about it for now.
All the cables that are popular seem to have too much capacitance for my amp.
Dave
If you are willing to use premium wire and connectors, here's what I suggest. An 8 foot length of red wire, and an 8 foot length of black wire should be enough to build a 1m pair. Make sure the two Neotech Solid UPOCC Copper in Teflon 18 AWG wires are evenly/consistently wound around each other along the entire length of the twisted pair assembly. Firmly wrap the twisted pair with a layer of Oatey FASTape PTFE Thread Seal Tape, a dark gray thick-mil product available at Home Depot. Rather than rely on a damage-prone bare wire connection of small 18 AWG solid core wire with poor contact surface area, solder terminate the wires with Xhadow XH-SPD Spades and firmly secure the spades with high torque to the binding posts for minimal resistance. As an option, you can cover the twisted pair with Techflex sleeving of your choice for protection and appearance.
Neotech Solid UPOCC Copper in Teflon 18 AWG Red:
http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/neotech-solid-upocc-copper-in-teflon-18-awg-red-p-1580
Neotech Solid UPOCC Copper in Teflon 18 AWG Black:
http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/neotech-solid-upocc-copper-in-teflon-18-awg-black-p-1869
Xhadow XH-SPD Spade:
http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/xhadow-xh-spd-spade-p-2107
Oatey 1/2 in. x 260 in. FASTape PTFE Thread Seal Tape:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Oatey-1-2-in-x-260-in-FASTape-PTFE-Thread-Seal-Tape-306220/205469821
That looks like a great project. I think I will give it a try at that price. I like the "mummy strikes" look of the Teflon tape!
Dave
BTW, the purpose of the Teflon tape mummy wrap is to help mitigate resonance of the conductors, while keeping the conductors firmly twisted together throughout the test of time.
Also, if your budget allows for more pricey wire, VH Audio's 18 AWG UniCrystal OCC copper wire with AirLok insulation may be a more transparent sounding option for the application. The AirLok cellular FEP Teflon dielectric has an even lower dielectric constant than the solid FEP Teflon of the Neotech wire.
See link:
Thanks for reminding me. I was looking VH Audio's 18 AWG UniCrystal OCC copper a while ago. I have been thinking about a twisted pair of solid core wire for a while. That does look like very good wire and VH is a major sponsor of the Asylum. Chris gives a very clear description of the wire on his website.
A lot of the tope cable manufacturers do put a lot of effort into controlling resonance. Teflon tape does seem like an easy step to keep things working right, and it would heighten the mad scientist look of my system.
A long while ago I did run a twisted pair of solid core Rat Shack wire. It sounded good for what it was. It might be interesting to compare a identically constructed Rat shack wires to VH, although I suspect the VH would be substantially better. Still, it is good to hear for yourself, and unlike most endeavors like this, it would be very inexpensive. I have been very curios about the affect of better material, but usually, you cannot compare identical construction. This is getting very interesting!
Dave
I think your vintage Threshold CAS-1 power amplifier with Spendor BC-1 loudspeakers should be a suitable match when connected via *short-length* 1m DIY 18 AWG solid core OCC copper twisted pair speaker wire. The Threshold power amplifier provides high damping factor (150), and Spendor and other classic BBC monitors were often connected via simple small-gauge solid core bell wire by British DIY'ers back in the day. This is not to say 18 AWG is ideal for the application, but since the required length for your system is very short, I feel reasonably confident in this case. That said, if your Radio Shack wire is 18 AWG solid core, you might consider building a twisted pair wrapped with Teflon tape and solder-terminated with ordinary spades in order to hear the essential effect it presents before springing for expensive OCC wire and premium spades. I wouldn't want you to be disappointed by the results of pricey wire and connectors for a DIY experiment. Furthermore, building a low-cost prototype for a DIY cable project can be good practice before building a more optimized version for serious use.
I think that is an excellent idea, to try a low cost mock-up. Note that I have an M&K subwoofer (vintage always except CD), so the disadvantages of 18 AWG will not be apparent.
Dave
That's a good point. The Spendor has semi-rigid enclosure walls (as I've read) which may help provide a natural-sounding transition from main loudspeakers to subwoofer for good integration. Let the M&K handle the bottom end like it wants to. I used to use an M&K subwoofer. It was a musical sounding animal, but competed with the main loudspeakers implemented at the time which needed an active crossover filter.
Back in the day, the M&K/ Spendor BC-1 was a popular combination. There is a synergy. I am also letting the Spendors run full range and rolling in the M&K very low. I lucked into both (on separate occasions) for a song.
I found some RadioShack 18ga that I had lying around in a sealed package, and I am pretty sure I have some plumbers tape too. I was going to try it with bare copper striped wires, to see what I think. I will probably add spades later. I have some RadioShack spades but they are crimp on. I don't think they would be good with solder.
Dave
If the spades you have will allow a very good crimp with 18 AWG solid core, try that method rather than use bare wire. The solder termination is just to ensure a secure interface with good conductivity.
I will take a look, and if not, I am sure I can find something that will or will solder. Do you like lead-free for this application? I need to get some for an amp I am working on, regardless.
Dave
I use Wonder Signature Leaded Solder. It's the reformulated old-school Wonder Solder that's easy to work with and sounds good to me.
See link:
Price is very reasonable for a pound. Thanks for the recommendation!
Dave
Interesting.
Now I dont' propose to know the first thing about capacitance or permittivity in relationship to the dielectric. But I've been using Audio Tekne Litz speaker cables for over 10 years now and have owned or auditioned both solid core and other Litz cables costing upwards of $8500 a pair off and on throughout that time period and the Teknes remain my most musical speaker cables yet. And they really came into their own after having them cryo-treated via the full immersion method.
As for the potential for the Litz wires vibrating more than a solid inside the dielectric, well, I suppose it's possible. But an Audio Tekne's girth is smaller than a No. 2 Pencil, the dielectric is a braided metal type that seems to be woven quite taut around the internal wires.
But even if the Teknes happen to vibrate more than some, if they still remain more detailed, pristine, smoother, and overall more musical than some solid core and some Litz types, what difference does it make?
Then again, all cabling vibrates to one degree or another when a current is passing through them.
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