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Hi,
I am replacing coupling capacitors in my vintage sony tuner and vintage epic a250. Torn between buying either 3-4 different brands of lower cost capacitors (10-20 bucks each) and pick my favorite or just buy one brand in the (50-100 each) range? My question is does cost always reflect quality or could a lower cost capacitor be subjectively preferred to higher cost capacitor sometimes?
Follow Ups:
...... to sound their best. They can sound like crap at first, being somewhat bass and treble-shy initially, as well as midrange forward, so do not judge them prematurely. I didn't like them at all during the first few days out of the gate, but they really began to sing after ten days of continuous 24/7 break-in, so please give them at least 250 hours minimum before doing any real evaluating, and 500 hours to be 100% sure of hearing everything they can do.
Best of luck, and I hope this helps.
Let us know what you find, please.
..... as they are, to my mind, THE best value in capacitors extant, bar none. NOTHING comes even close for the price. Flat FR, extended highs with superb dynamics, and with absolutely KILLER DEEP bass, these caps gave my Duelund CAST-PIOs a real run for the money on absolute terms (review to come later!), yet cost less than 1/10th of the Duelunds. Now THAT'S real value! And they are 630VDC rated, too.
You can get the Obbligatos at Parts Connexion, which is having a 20% off sale currently, but only for a few more days, if I remember correctly. Best of luck, and let us know how it goes for you!
(Uh, oh. I better look out! The "Tweak Police" will accuse me of working with/for Chris at PCX in a secret and grand conspiracy to benefit PCX. Or is it with the 'evil' Chinese who manufacture Obbligatos?) ;-)
I have tried them, among others.
The only real weakness of these capacitors was the obvious lack of deeper bass frequencies, compared to any other caps I have tried so far (Jantzen superior Z-cap, silver Z-cap, Wima MKP10...).
I found the lower frequencies to be quite ample with the Obbligatos. May I ask what you are using the Obbs with, please? If it is not too much trouble, of course. TIA!
I am in NO WAY criticizing your finding, BTW. You heard what you heard.
Thanks for floating your observations. Always a welcome addition to get new and different perspectives.
I was using them at the output of my cd player.
I have tried them twice in a few months.
In the meantime, I've found a somewhat similar opinion here.
http://singaporehifi.blogspot.com/2010/09/capacitor-shoot-out.html
.... by Eric, I had that pdf'd and well considered a while ago, along with the HumbleHomeMadeHiFi; Jon L.s staggering capacitor comparison work at Enjoy the Music/DIT.com and Audio Circle; The Great Capacitor Shoot-Out; and AV Frontline's 21 capacitor shoot-out, as well. Oh, and various stuff from Jimmy's Junk Yard, too. He's fun to read as well, and does small-scale, reasonably well-conducted shoot-outs.
If you look at Eric's article carefully, you'll see that he didn't give the Obbligatos (or any other caps) much more than 10 - 20 hours break-in, and he says plainly that in the introduction. I have already posted here in this very thread that the Obbligatos take a dreadfully long time to break in (250-500 hours), sadly, and have somewhat mediocre bass in the initial stages, say, before 100 hours at least, probably more. Thus, Eric's findings are absolutely spot on for a non-broken in Obbligato Gold. But not for a fully broken in Obbligato Gold, at least in my fairly extensive experience with them.
If yours were fully broken in when you critically listened and formed your opinions, I do not know why you heard a loss of bass with the Obb Golds. That is not in the realm of my many experiences with them. Of course, everyone's taste, and mileage, will vary, as always.
Cheers,
WS
Jantzen superior silver Z-cap is my favourite coupling cap.
The price is decent for the given quality.
HumbleHomeMadeHiFi tests capacitors in crossovers at midrange and tweeter positions.
In my 10+ years experience one extensive week of listening was always quite enough to judge any passive or active component.
YMMV, of course, and I appreciate that.
Winston. you mentioned that the FR of this particular cap is flat, although you never measured it. It's a passive device after all. Before it's broken in, you say that the bass is reticent, so something must be going on in the capacitor in order to subdue the lower frequencies. Or conversely, something is happening to exaggerate these frequencies later on in the burn-in. What's happening do you think?
U.B. has a point. You always go off on a no-holds-barred endorsement of everything you recommend, without a shred of evidence to back-up ANY of your claims other than your own personal impressions. That's fine, to a certain extent. We all enjoy reading about other's subjective experiences, but they're not always claiming they've found the best of everything, bar none, and that makes much more sense.
Winston, please just moderate your statements about this or that always being the best in existence, without reservation. It demeans the value of your opinions, which otherwise have great value.
No, I don't believe you're in cahoots with PC or Obbligato.
I've tried those caps myself in coupling capacity in very revealing amplifiers, and they were definitely not the best I heard. They are good value and exhibit nice transparency and tonality, but they're not the most accurate caps out there. I found they impart an artificial spaciousness, almost a reverb effect, to all music. It is initially very beguiling, but, after careful evaluation, not completely accurate: all music sounds as if playing inside a cathedral. I like my organ music that way, but not a jazz quartet.
By the way, the cap I ended up with is Audyn True Copper, available from, of all places, Parts Express, or ordered directly from Germany. PE now carries them at the suggestion of others who have tried them, based on my recommendation. They are the lowest price PP film and copper foil cap available.
Of course, every application, system, and listener will have different experiences.
Peace,
Tom E
You don't like my enthusiasm? Tough. Get over it. Some people do. We're not all here to please Tom, now, are we? (Or do you really believe that?)
He wanted CHEAP caps that sound good. Are the Audyns even close in price to the Obbs? Let's see. A 1.0uF/630VDC Audyn True Copper is $46.14. And an Obbligato of the exact same value was $11.20 on sale from Parts Connexion. Are the Audyn 4.5 times better? I wouldn't know. But they sure are 4.5 times the Obbs price, aren't they?
So you don't like Obbligatos. Fine. You said your piece. You made your opinions known.
But as for your personal criticism of how I express myself, stuff it. If you don't like what I write, don't read it. Simple as that.
So the real Winston comes out from behind the pretense of fawning politeness and deference. Everything's cool until someone doesn't bless your inflated prose. I tried to be diplomatic, yet you respond with name calling and belligerence, which are neither helpful nor constructive. I plan to not give your gushing reviews any credence in the future because you do not know how to qualify your opinions. That's a shame, because you have knowledge and experience and an entertaining style. Your enthusiasm is certainly welcome, but a lack of perspective possibly indicates a problem in judgment, which invalidates opinions. You certainly don't need to write to please me, but people might find your reviews more credulous if you weren't always over the moon to recommend everything.The OP asked for cap recommendations and whether price made a difference, not for cheap caps. I gave my opinion that Audyn True Copper, in my experience, is better than the OG, and probably worth the difference in price, every penny of $46. Compared to the extravagant Duelund's and any other copper foil cap, they're a ridiculous bargain and probably one of the few legitimately priced boutique parts. If the OP wants real value in coupling caps, Sonicap Gen I is better in some ways than the OG's and even lower cost. Unlike you, I have tried both OG and TC, but did not claim my preference is the best in the world.
Trying to make peace,
Tom E
Edits: 12/15/14
.... there is no further reason to read anything I post, eh?
Excellent! That's absolutely fine with me. No problem at all. I welcome it.
Because if being 'diplomatic' to you is openly telling someone you don't like their style of expression, I'd prefer you keep your diplomacy to yourself. I will not bother you; please do not bother me.
Much of the time, 'peaceful coexistence' simply refers to successfully ignoring one another.
That would be just fine with me.
or maybe you didn't read and remember these entries from very recently. Not an absolutist, 100% of the time:
#1
#2
#3
A neutral party.
Have you compared every capacitor in the world to know that "NOTHING comes even close for the price"? Probably not, so why say so?
If it has flat frequency response, then how does it have "KILLER DEEP bass"? Or extended highs for that matter? If these parts of the frequency are highlighted, then it's not flat. Did you take measurements to indicate a flat frequency response? I don't see them. Pay close attention to what you're saying, because there are incongruities that give this "review" little credibility.
"Have you compared every capacitor in the world to know that "NOTHING comes even close for the price"? Probably not, so why say so? "
Exactly! Whenever I read that something is the "best" I move on: there is no "best" and one can't determine the "best" until you have sampled EVERYTHING ELSE.
.... so I have no idea what you said, nor do I care.
If my posts offend you, ignore them. But attempting to undermine what I am trying to convey just once again shows a total selfishness on your part that could cause an unsuspecting inmate unfamiliar with your proclivities, to actually take your musing seriously, and avoid a product that could potentially be of benefit to them. I am sure that has no significance for you, but if you had any consideration for someone other than yourself, you'd keep your negativism to your self, unless you have something constructive to add to the conversation.
I ignore everything you post. I always do. I always will.
Others can do with your posts what they like, but Stu and I see eye-to-eye on this one: you should be roundly ignored.
Don't you understand that Winston is talking about subjective effects, not measured frequency response? You seem to be in the "if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist" camp.
If so, I can see why you appear to be deeply unhappy in this place (I base this on all the predictable gripes that your posts consist of, you know, where's the evidence, did you do a DBT, blah blah.). It might come as a shock, but most of the posts here are from long time audio enthusiasts who are posting their impressions and experiences.
Have you considered frequenting a site like diyaudio, where objectivism rules (and negative feedback is considered a good thing). Or maybe post something actually positive?
Wait a minute ..... Winston is your personal product pusher/reviewer. No wonder you have come to his rescue so quickly.
Well that's what you claim. He is a customer yes, and someone I know as well. You see conspiracies everywhere don't you.
Totally ignoring this guy. He never posts anything informative. He also projects a totally negative attitude. Nothing seems to make a difference for him
I think perhaps up in the frigid waste land of snow bound northern Canada, there is special place for him. LOL!!!!!
biscuits a bad name.
That's NOT easy!
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
.
Lol, just pulling his strings and helping keep his blood pressure up ;)
Thanks I was hoping you would say that. Yep I am actually in the process of placing an order with parts connexion. I was thinking that a good film and foil might be the way to go here. I will be in touch
What microfarad value and voltage rating do you require?
Hi,
I need 1uf(can be low voltage), .047uf 400v, 4.7uf(can be low voltage), 6800pf(can be low voltage), .033uf(can be low voltage).
I agree with Winston here; Obligatto gold are the best lower price cap I've tried. And although I haven't tried every cap in the world, I have tried several dozen. And no, I didn't measure the frequency response (although I could have done so should I have wanted to), because it's meaningless as a predictor of sound quality.
Thanks I will try them for sure and I appreciate you sharing your experience. The dozens of caps you tried were they all lower budget or some expensive ones too?
They range from ones that cost a couple of dollars up to a hundred plus dollars. I did also recently try some expensive Duelands, but they were brand new and apparently not broken in.
Oh ok well thats quite a range did you notice any correlation between price and performance? I have decided that because this is my first foray into high end coupling capacitors that I would try a number of different brands in the" budget bracket" and see. So I ordered Obbligato premium gold, Audyn plus, Jantzen superior Z, Solen silver, and Audiocap theta which by the way seems a much maligned capacitor for some reason. I will see if any of those do it for me if not I will be forced to venture into the high end bracket.
Interesting range of choices. You left out a very competitive candidate: Sonicap Gen I. Cheap and very high quality, which answers your initial question.
I would tell you why the Auricap Theta's aren't highly regarded, but it might bias your own trials.
Please let us know the results of your experiment. Your results do not need to agree with experts or anyone else to be valid and useful for others. It's all subjective.
Keep in mind that cap break-in is a very real effect. You should be able to hear some significant change within the span of a single CD. With low level signals such as coupling duty, expect the majority of change to occur after at least twenty hours, and sometimes as much as a hundred, of steadily passing a signal. There are a very few exceptions, such as Mundorf Silver/Oil and some teflon caps, that take longer. If you remove caps and put them back in later, maintain the same signal path direction. Initially, it doesn't seem to make much difference. Caps should not be allowed to hang free in the air, supported only by their leads; they should be supported by something solid and damped to resist vibration.
Peace,
Tom E
Sure sure absolutely I'll let you know. I thought I'd include a couple of underdogs. I am going to hook them all up to the output of my tuner and run it for a couple of days.
You agree with Winston? You mentioned he was a customer and a friend; and (in my eyes) an unabashed supporter of your products with an almost child-like glee bordering on hysteria.And frequency response is meaningless as a predictor of sound quality? That's embarrassing to read. You two guys are doing a disservice to this site.
Edits: 12/15/14 12/15/14
it's not working now I am wondering if you have some agenda? Give it a break you made you point a long time ago. Best regards Moray James.
moray james
Hello guys,
Im new here. Just a few of my experiences with couplers on my 45 set amp. I like the russian k40y and k75 for their tonal beauty. Both caps I think have a nice flow.to the.music that is involving but the k75 are a lil darker. Ive compared them against the rike audio s cap and.prefer the k40 to it for.naturalness.... the rikes are dynamic but I think a sounds a little thin and sometimes artificial. The best I have used are duelund cast cu.
Thanks
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