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This is a follow-up to a recent preview of a new product from Mad Scientist Audio (MSA) of New Zealand: the MSA “BlackPod” footers (currently introductorily priced at US$99/set of three BlackPods; see at http://www.madscientist-audio.com/blackpod-high-performance-audio-footers/.)
In that preview a few weeks ago, I basically requested fellow AA inmates to fill in the key analysis of whether the MSA BlackPods were in the league with the reigning champs, the Stillpoints footer systems, as I then had no access to these Stillpoints footers and it was obviously the critical analysis to have.
And while I personally found the MSA BlackPods to beat every footer I own (and I own a LOT of footers!), and dutifully reported that finding, I think everyone here knows that most footers are basically tuning devices of one flavor or another, and you simply pick your poison. And there are LOTS of poisons to pick from, footer-wise.
Yet, the Stillpoints footers are understood pretty well universally to be ‘the best’ footers extant, and any footer evaluation that does not compare to the reigning champion is pretty much useless.
I now can report on a direct comparison between the Stillpoints “Ultra SS” footers (around $900/three) against the MSA BlackPods ($99/three.)
Listening via the MSA reference system (previously detailed in prior reviews of MSA BlackDiscus and BlackStick products here on the Tweaks Asylum), I was privileged to hear the vaunted Stillpoints Ultra SS at work. What a superb footer! I was absolutely enthralled by the gobs of detail and high frequency information the Stillpoints passed with no reductiveness or glare. Very impressive, indeed! The MSA footers would really have their work cut out for them.
But when the MSA footers went in, suddenly everything changed. The midrange got more dynamic yet more musical, and the soundstage grew wider, deeper and bigger. There was simply more ‘there’ than with the Stillpoints, at least in the mids.
Not so in the highs, though, where the Stillpoints are simply untouchable. But the MSA Blackpods were no slouches in the higher frequencies, either, just no match for the Stillpoints surreal level of HF resolution. The BlackPods’ highs were smooth as silk and very detailed with excellent extension and air, and with absolutely no aggression or even a hint of glare. Very nice.
So, in the final analysis of the highs and the mids, I heard it as the Stillpoints Ultra SS being supreme when it came to revealing every tiny detail in the upper registers, with just gobs and gobs of airy openness. But in the midrange, the MSA BlackPods beat the Stillpoints handily, making a much more musical, involving and dynamic presentation, with absolutely no glare or harshness added.
The midrange response was simply glorious with MSA footers installed, whereas the Stillpoints seemed, well, somewhat anemic and threadbare in the mids by comparison. The MSA BlackPods really put the proverbial “meat-on-the-bones” just like another set of products of great mystique, the NBS top-of-the-line interconnect and power cord offerings I heard many years ago (VERY pricey, though!) The NBS line-up also really fleshed out the sound and made the presentation so much more meaty and involving than many of their competitors’ products. The MSA BlackPod footers are cut from the same audio cloth: it’s all about the midrange, stupid! (As J. Gordon Holt continuously reminded us.)
But many of you are probably saying right now, “Bullshit, Winston! It’s all about the BASS response, buddy.” And I would certainly agree that bass is the absolute foundation of most music, and if that is wrong in any way, the house of sound built thereon is not going to be anywhere near as involving, nor as rock solid and 3D holographic as a system with killer bass, all other things being equal. That’s just the way it is in audio, at least in my humble experience.
With that back-drop, just how did the Stillpoints Ultra SS fare against the MSA BlackPods in the recreation of bass?
No comparison: The MSA BlackPods wiped the floor with the Stillpoints Ultra SS!
I was gobsmacked! I could not believe it. But there it was. And utterly unmistakable.
The Stillpoints had a somewhat receded, ‘polite’ bass response by comparison, which I was NOT expecting at all. We played the fabulous “Moonlight Serenade” CD featuring the duo of bass great Ray Brown and guitarist Laurindo Almeida to really get a feel for deep, growling, grab-you-by-the-balls-and-shake-’em acoustic bass (it’s a GREAT disc, if you don’t already have it.)
On this killer bass disc, it was absolutely clear that compared to the MSA BlackPods, the Stillpoints’ bass response was simply MIA: “Missing In Action”. It just wasn’t there like the MSA footers. On the CD’s first cut, about 3/4 of the way through, at a certain point Ray Brown really digs deep and the bass strings and instrument’s body wildly resonate and literally shake you viscerally. It’s just awesome! With the Stillpoints Ultra SS footers in there, the bass response was fine and very taut and detailed, but it also seemed (as stated above) receded and polite. The above-described passage did not growl and viscerally shake me, as I was anticipating. It seems the Stillpopints may be a wee bit too reductionist in the lower frequencies.
Not so with the MSA BlackPods. Talk about gut-shaking bass response! YOW! No comparison. That section where Ray Brown ‘digs deep’ was viscerally wrenching, like really great bass should be. That little section from the disc’s first cut actually shakes your insides, as the LF waves pass through your body. And the MSA BlackPods really put out that deep resonance, along with excellent detail, definition and proper pitch.
Simply put, the MSA BlackPods consistently created much more realistic and visceral bass when compared to the Stillpoints. It truly was no comparison.
One other thing I thought I’d mention was PRAT (pace, rhythm and timing.) While the Stillpoints are the undisputed ‘detail’ champions, (and I LOVE great definition and detail, like all audiophiles, I suspect), to me it is musicality, musical flow and toe-tapping qualities that are essential for truly satisfying musical reproduction. If it don’t ‘flow’, it’s a ‘no go’, if you know what I mean.
Like so many of us, I want a deeply involving presentation, one that draws me in and won’t let me go. It must be musically and emotionally satisfying. Speed and details are wonderful, but they are only a small part of a huge sonic picture that every piece of gear needs to (hopefully) get right to create the illusion of live music.
While the Stillpoints Ultra SS footers are very good when considered alone in these regards, the MSA Blackpods are much more involving and musically satisfying, by comparison.
Perhaps the best way to describe the difference between these two great footers is as follows: the Stillpoints Ultra SS grabs your brain (details) while the MSA BlackPods grab your heart (musicality) and your feet (toe-tapping PRAT.)
To sum up, the MSA BlackPods not only held their ground against the vaunted Stillpoints Ultra SS, but actually bested them in midrange and bass response. And while the Stillpoints remain the undisputed champs at squeezing out every last detail in the upper registers, over-all the MSA BlackPods simply sounded more musically pleasing, more involving and more fundamentally correct than the Stillpoints Ultra SS footers.
Just how much was I impressed with MSA BlackPods performance versus the Stillpoints Ultra SS? Impressed enough to immediately pick up two more sets of the BlackPods, bringing my BlackPod footer assortment to five sets.
Of course, YMMV. But to my ears and my wallet, the new MSA BlackPods continue the MSA tradition of offering products with great value and performance for a great price. They are ultra easy to use, require no break-in, and come with a full 30-day money back guarantee to eliminate risk.
And for anyone who tries the BlackPods, please write in and share your findings, positive or negative. All that matters is that we share our experiences, so others can decide if the price of admission is worth the show on offer.
Wishing everyone happy and warm holidays, and a wonderful New Year!
Cheers,
WS
Follow Ups:
Hi Winston -
I just read your review - just after I posted my review - and am flummoxed at the similarities as I read no reviews or feedback before my posted notes just now. Recently, listening here has been a hit or miss sort of thing; little time, and even less concentration for A/B sort of listening. So, I struggled with getting the words down from thoughts clouded of relatives mortally ill, seasonal obligations, pain and the like.
My question for you at this point: with all the sets of Blackpods you now have what are they used with - what sort of equipment/system? And, more importantly, what is the result now being under all equipment, sound wise. Too much of a good thing? Any drawbacks?
My reason for the questioning is due to the fact that I discovered some time ago that music in an "all Stillpoints system" suffered musicality (to my ears). I found not to like 4 Stillpoints Ultra SS under the int. amp. I had in my prior speaker-based system vs. 2 Herbies firm Tall Tenderfeet under the rear and 2 Ultra SS under the front of this int. amp. It just "sounded" more like music, and less technical. And , I did not care for all 4 of the Herbies either. So, more of the same was not better in that case as I had Ultra SS under all other equipment.
As to your comments on bass response: I must admit I am not drawn to simply bass, but life-like bass. I have noted that the more Stillpoints used the tighter the bass becomes, almost to the point of sounding a little bass lean. I may have the CD you mention, so will try to find out what you mentioned as being heard. I know I have other Ray Brown CDs. Was there a specific track/title you heard that I should listen to?
Thanks for the time and effort you took to keep us informed.
robss
First, let me say that you wrote a very nice review of the MSA BlackPods versus the Stillpoints Minis. Kudos! Very thoughtful and well-constructed.
Being an old fart myself, and having a teenaged son, I have to admit the initial comment about your Mom made me smile. I could be wrong here (and if I am, no problem setting me straight, of course), but that comment made me think you're a younger audiophile. If so, that's wonderful to hear. And if you're older, well, that's great, too. Either way, it was a fine review, well-formatted and nicely thorough.
But if you're a younger audiophile, I would like to mention that I was very impressed with the maturity and depth of what you wrote, and I encourage you to contribute more to the Audio Asylum in the future. (Well, I encourage you to contribute more to Audio Asylum, whether you're young OR old, as we always need and welcome people helping to bring us a new viewpoint.)
Okay, to answer your questions, regarding the Ray Brown/Laurindo Almeida CD, "Moonlight Sereenade", we used the very first track (superb!) and track number's 9 and 10, which are very nice, too. (As I recall, track #10 is Laurindo Almeida doing a very vigorous solo with astounding dynamics, so be careful with the volume! It can kinda fool you.) The rest of the album, though, is also fabulous to demo with, as excellent acoustic bass is simply a great way to judge a speaker's low end for musical accuracy and involvement, at least IMHO. And the guitar sounds very fine, too. A nice recording, all the way around.
As for where I employ my 5 sets of MSA BlackPod footers, I have one set each under my Cabasse Baltic II speakers (a VERY nice improvement, and highly recommended for at least a try-out, as you may really like what they do under your speakers.)
Another set of BlackPods go under my Unbalancer analog output stage of my modified Sony XA5400ES source. Very nice result there, too.
The remaining two sets of BlackPods were supposed to go under my big Spectron Musician III, Mark 2 amps, but the pair of Spectrons are currently awaiting repair up in Auckland, so I employ one of those sets of the MSA BlackPods under my Coda CSi Ltd, SE integrated preamp (which is now filling in for my pair of ailing Spectrons.)
The last remaining set of MSA BlackPods are awaiting installation under either my Sony player's out-board Unbalancer tubed analog output stage power supply, (i.e., high voltage DC rails) or the Unbalancer's outboard tube heater power supply (low voltage AC.) Each of these PSUs currently is supported by a set of four Mapleshade massive Super Carpet Piercing Brass Spikes (approximately 4" long and heavy as hell! No longer available, btw) on a huge Mapleshade 100% pure Maple "Rooted Maple Buttress" stands. We shall see how that shakes out in the near future.
The MSA BlackPods currently in the system have not reached a point of diminishing returns yet. I cannot comment on whether they will in the future with more BlackPod sets in the mix, but currently, they blend well together with no anomalies noted due to too many BlackPods. YMMV, as always, of course.
Hope this answers your Qs!
Cheers,
WS
Hi Winston -
Much thanks for the As. to my Qs. And the kind comments as well.
The kid in me comes out when involved with the audio/music thing. Otherwise, the rest of me qualifies under the "old fart" heading as well.
Off topic: Perhaps interestingly, my one son, 25+yo these days, is not at all interested in any music - reproduced or otherwise. "Gen." related influence? "You can have all this (the "systems", the music, ALL of it )when I am done" was met with a blank stare. He picked up piano like a gifted sort when young. I ran away from my piano teacher when 9 - and have been running ever since; no gene for making music, but got the "music appreciation gene" (as we call it in our family). My dad has had and used the "music making gene" - he had a jazz band in high school and actually had a chance to lead out Dave Brubeck on sax (his gift) at one point. And I continue on my own journey now....
...and I will continue to bring further insights as I find them with the Blackpods.
Happy and Peaceful Listening to you Winston, and all others reading this,
robss
PS: My mom would still very much like to continue to tell me when I could use the computer - if I let her. Still kicking, she is.
Many thanks for the family info. I had no idea of your age or family status.
Actually, a dear friend of mine had his father die from stroke when the friend was just a teenager. As he got older, and to his eternal credit in my book, my friend viewed himself as his mother's sole protector and support, and so he lived at home and supported her until her death about 15 years ago.
Anyway, he was a very good son, and always allowed her to have priority on the family computer, which made me smile every time I saw that. Thus, your comment struck a memory chord from my youth, and I simply viewed the comment about your 'Mom' through the lens of my life experience.
BTW, my current teenage son is my second step-child journey. My first set that I raised to adulthood (in a previous marriage, obviously) are now in their mid 30's. I must say that there is a world of difference between the first set (pre-smart phone) and my current step-son (post smart phone.) No doubt about it, the first set were more physically socially interactive, while my current step-son is very inward and withdrawn. Can you guess which spent most of their formative years on small, hand-held devices and computer screen interfaces?
And the same goes for hifi. The older step-kids all dig high fidelity gear and hifi, while my current step-son is not at all interested in audio gear or hifi, other than cheap ear buds and small portable music devices. With the cost of nice separate electronic gear nowadays, though, how can I complain?
Again, thanks for the nice response.
Cheers,
WS
Thank you Winston Smith for the review. Thank you for bringing this footer to my attention. Having said that there needs to be more reviews to confirm
these findings.
Checking in here: I have recently acquired a set of 3 Black Pods in order to compare with the 4 Stillpoints Ultra Minis and 28 Ultra SS/Ultra AL that I have, as well as the one set of 4 Herbie's firm tall Tenderfeet, and perhaps other footers I have remaining as suited. I have avoided reading any reviews of the same in order not to throw me off in the process; this includes Winston's review above. While not being in any way connected to any associated audio entity it ought to be interesting as to the outcome.
I will be reviewing the Black Pods with my headphone system and my living room system, presently with modded MG1.6QR speakers. Already, with the Black Pods in the headphone setup I can say that it "sounds" to me that it is not simply a matter of apples vs. apples. I will attempt to explain further when I find the right words after some more listening; until then, there is something going on between the 4 Ultra Minis and the 3 Black Pods that I can not form into words yet....
Happy listening until then.
robss,
waiting for your review.
My Mom just let me use the computer, so here goes:
As I have been able to only recently, there are a few revelations that have come to mind since using the 3 Blackpods I now have. However, I find I am not nearly done with the discovery process of the Blackpods; hence, I will be continuing to post as I move to my other system and/or compare to other footers I have, as mentioned previously here.For the notes below, I compared the 3 Blackpods vs. 3 Stillpoints Ultra Minis under the same 3 spots - 2 at rear and 1 under the center of a spinning CD so as to keep things uniform - of my upgraded (dampening in and out, w/ HiFi Tuning fuses installed) CD player, Cambridge Azur 840C in a fairly highly resolving headphone system:
Stock Denon AH-D2000 'phones, stock Bryston BHA-1 head amp. (w/4 firm Tall Herbies Tenderfeet under it) w/Shunyata Python CX pc to it, Shunyata Talos conditioner (w/ 3 Maple wood blocks under it) w/ Shunyata Diamondhead pc to it from wall outlet, and the CDP w/ Telwire PC to it and using Shunyata Python XLR ICs in a balanced system. Rack: old DIY solid oak and Michigan Maple top (I will try to post the pix); feet are only temporary and not ideal.
Note that I have not read any reviews about Blackpods so as to not influence my findings. No test/measurement equipment was used in the review here.
The conclusion: I found the Blackpods to be a surprisingly successful product vs. the Stillpoints Ultra Minis in my system. I found the Blackpods had little, if any, trade-offs vs. the Ultra Minis as well. The comparison between the 2 products is difficult to make due to the way each "works" (ie, their advantages and other characteristics). It is not simply one of one being "better" and the other "more better". They produce recorded music differently, so it is a matter of what suits the listener, and their system, in the end. The value of the Blackpods (~$45 USD ea.) is crazy good vs. the Ultra Minis (~$125 USD ea.). I will attempt to explain below.
1) I found the old quick 'n' easy A/B comparo to not work for this review. There were differences noted done this way but I found the 2 products to "sound" more similar than not, and, found those differences to not mean that much vs. long term listening. I found the full characterization of the Blackpods identified only after long term listening.
2) Essentially, I found the Stillpoints Ultra Minis to influence the entire spectrum frequency fairly evenly - to my ears and without any other testing. Their benefit was throughout vs. the Blackpods that (again, to my ears) most favorably influenced the midrange. No downsides to either here - how do you like your tea?
3) With the Ultra Minis the soundstage takes a much wider, deeper and higher expansion. Detail and venue are brought forth uniformly. Placement, number of footers used and orientation of footer will influence the results in this regard. There is more musical information of everything: UF, midrange and bass, notes begin sooner and end latter. UF and bass are noted improved more than with the use of the Blackpods.
Downsides: one must keep the footer so as to not lock up (unscrewed). Also, the Ultra Minis do not make the music more listenable, just more technically correct, if you will. I am a "truth" camp person so it does not bug me, and my system is neutral so I can listen through Stillpoints without being overwhelmed by the increase in detail. Some listeners find this distracting.
4) With the Blackpods the soundstage takes on a somewhat less wide, less deep and less high expansion vs. the Ultra Minis. Detail and venue as such are not that obvious a change - but the improvement is not that much less than the Ultra Minis. The real advantage I discovered is that the midrange is benefited better with the Blackpods vs. Ultra Minis. In the end, the Blackpods make music more listenable vs. the Ultra Minis. I had a difficult time realizing this fact until after quite some hours of listening; I think I felt like the Ultra Minis *should* be better, being used to them as I had and knowing how vast the price difference was.
No downsides found with the Blackpods as used. With the Blackpod balls as they are there was no sliding around as found with other ball-to-chassis footers. Advantages vs. Ultra Minis: No moving parts. Value is greater vs. Ultra Minis.
Surprisingly, I found myself drawn into the music more with the Blackpods than the Stillpoints Ultra Minis.
Hope this helps.
robss
Edits: 12/17/14 03/28/15
Awe-d-o-file,
Glad to see your footer is finally back in stock. We need user reviews on your Aural Support Component footer.
When dealing with basic laws of nature (like mechanical vibrations and their behavior) and staying within those priciples, the benefits are massive, they are many, and they are across the frequency spectrum without any negatives whatsoever.Hence, based on your findings, IMO, each of the models you've evaluated had to have one or more shortcomings in their design. Or perhaps it was your execution that caused the shortcomings? Or perhaps a combination thereof?
I almost forgot. If you're not allowing each of the products to settle in for a minimum of 7 - 10 days before swapping out or completing your evaluation, your evaluation is essentially worthless.
Just as you should not evaluate new components without first allowing them to fully burn-in. Mechanically, there is a settling in period that is almost exactly like an electrical burn-in. The only difference here is that once burned-in a component will stay burned-in (for the most part). But with mechanical settling in, any movement whatsover, the objects must go through the entire settling-in phase as if starting from scratch.
And if after 7 - 10 days untouched, you hear little change, the product and/or the execution is a dud.
Edits: 12/02/14 12/02/14
.
Yup. And there's no way around it. And the 7 days is absolute minimum.Otherwise, it's no different than A/B comparing 2 brand new out-of-the-box components. Actually it's worse because when it comes to mechanical settling in, often times there's little to no benefit whatsoever. At least with brand new components you still are able to achieve 60 - 70% or so of the component's raw potential.
Not so with mechanical objects. I put a component into my shelf, there are little to no gains for the first 5 - 7 days. Then the magic kicks in and usually takes up to 15 days to complete with multiple very distinct and audible gains occurring daily during that time.
If it's any consulation to you, my latest amps and my new extreme install method took near 5 months to fully settle in with the first improvement occurring on day 7. You don't want to know how long it takes my rack to fully settle.
You don't wait, then any conclusion is little more than a charade and you're not helping yourself, the mfg'er (if they even are aware about this), nor the community.
Edits: 12/03/14
... as hardly anyone can remember something in that detail and it perhaps even necessitates not listening to other music in between.
So in fact a dealer's cables which have been burned in (albeit in a different system) might be the best bet.
I tried the free sample he sent out months back and it didn't do much but I have already done things similar to combat the same things the product attempts to correct. I know this is a different animal.That said there is enough positive written of his products that I think overall they must be at least somewhat effective, probably more. I think Dave's power cord post was one of the only negatives and I believe his assertions as he too had already done much more than most to improve AC delivery.
I know I have a bias in that I was told to email MSA in 2013 and ask of distribution in the US and never got a reply either way.
However I did not find DG's post a problem questioning someone who posts only so often and a VERY HIGH percentage (over 80 right?) are positive reviews of one manufacturer with no negatives. Since that post we have found geography and other things play a role in that. I'm fine with his detailed posts.
So to me the process here often works as we have seen in this thread. As to footers some racks and gear are much better than others and therefore the results of footers will vary from system to system. I would also add that different environments have differing levels of crap that cause a problem for audio systems and both the persons gear and the amount of other preexisting products to combat those problem areas play a role in the outcome one will achieve by adding "one more thing". I hope that makes at least a little sense........it does in my head but I often weakly or improperly convey my thoughts.
E
T
Edits: 12/01/14
besides "Moonlight Serenade"? Any large ensemble recordings (e.g., symphonic)? Solo vocals? Massed choral?
What are your impressions regarding spatial cues, both large-scale (i.e., the recording venue as engineered into the recording) and intra-soundstage spatial relationships? Delineation of the inner voicing of complex compositions? Timbral rightness? Attack and decay?
Knowing those sources and impressions would put flesh on the barebones of "gobsmacked," "more dynamic yet more musical," and "wiped the floor."
Thanks.
Jim
http://jimtranr.com
Thanks for the post and queries. Good questions.
Okay, as for the pieces played that day, Bob Prangnell knows exactly what was played, so he should definitely chime in here, but my recollection was: Patricia Barber, "Modern Cool" (using 'Light My Fire' and four or five others tunes I do not know the names of. Sorry.); from Putumayo records their wonderful "Blues Lounge" with the cut, 'Walk Away' (a great electric bass and synth track for low frequency energy.) No big orchestral that I can recall. Almost all pop and jazzy stuff. The Barber disc was used for its sultry, deep female voicings, which sounded very nice.
But Bob's the guy who knows exactly what was played. I just closed my eyes and listened and was intensely focused on what I was hearing in the comparison. The "Moonlight Serenade" disc was the most memorable, though, by far. That really showed the extreme differences in the footers vis-a-vis bass response, and lower midrange as well.
On the 'how did it sound, exactly' front, let me get into greater details for you.
Spatial cues are a real mainstay of the attractiveness of the Stillpoints, and it's easy to understand why, once you hear the detail that these devices can deliver. They are, as I said, the 'detail king'. So spatial cues in the upper registers were VERY nicely delineated by the Ultra SS, better than the BlackPods. But the BlackPods were no slouches in the detail arena, either. They were very, very good, but the advantage was clearly Stillpoints, and I made that very obvious in the original post.
Yet when we talk about inner voicings in complex passages, spatial relationships and cues, and attack and decay, they are all greatly affected by other factors as well as just detail retrieval. This is where over-all midrange impact is critical, as in a gestalt of the whole listening experience.
With the Stillpoints, it always was a case of TONS of detail, but with lower apparent dynamics, force and flow, i.e., less involving musically. The BlackPods seemed more musically integrated, and thereby, more involving and immersive. When the Stillpoints were in the mix, it was like looking at a picture that is super-finely pixilated, with incredible details, but also with a lack of musical integration, flow, depth and smoothness compared to the BlackPods. So, while there was gobs of air with the Stillpoints (again, made VERY clear in the original post), it seemed a wee bit sterile and not as musically satisfying as the over-all impression left by the BlackPods.
Of course, if your system is already very tubey and smooth, the BlackPods would likely be a bad match. You would want more details and air, which is just what the Stillpoints deliver in spades times five. They are the best I have ever heard at that, and so if that's what your system needs, the big ticket asking price might be worth it to you, if you can swing it.
But if your system is looking for musicality, bass impact, dynamics and a smooth, integrated midrange, those BlackPods deliver very good value for their price. Better than the Stillpoints, at least as to what I heard listening to the MSA reference system.
But it is ALL about system balancing. It always is, as I am sure you well know.
So, to sum up: the Stillpoints offer unparalleled detail retrieval and an over-all sound that is very fine, indeed. Truly a great footer. Its cost is a concern, but based purely on performance, and without considering cost, the Stillpoints deserve the accolades they get. Again, a truly great footer.
But they are not perfect. They have limitations and weaknesses, bass response being one very prominent area where the Stillpoints really fall down, IMHO.
The BlackPods weakness is their HF extension and details, when compared to the Stillpoints. But the BlackPods excel at midrange liquidity, dynamics, tonal balance and integration, and of course, superb bass response.
The Stillpoints seem a little weak ('anemic' is how I originally phrased it) in the mids, but that may simply be a shifting of emphasis into the upper registers to get that incredible detail and upper frequency extension. But the over-all tonal balances of the two footers could not be more stark and contrasting: a little thin in the mids and definitely in the bass, with Stillpoints; not as extended, but much more dynamic, musical, smoother and deeper better bass with the BlackPods.
It's really all just a matter of what your system needs currently.
But NO footer is, or ever will be, "perfect" and suit everyone. If you ever think you've found one, let me know, PLEASE. I want to hear it.
Hope this helped.
Cheers,
WS
It helps put your review in greater perspective.
I'd agree that synergy is crucial. I've settled on SP Ultra Minis under my Oppo player and tubed c-j line stage as providing the best overall system balance in my listening environment after trying a variety of cost-effective footer designs and materials. In my configuration, bass down to the speaker/room effective lower limit of ~35 Hz punches and growls where it should, so it's not an issue. Note that I use four footers in each location--listening indicates that it works better than three in my situation.
Speaking of location, I've found that footer placement is critical in eliciting biggest bang for the buck. Under-the-chassis symmetrical appearance is nice, but where a transformer, for example, is "off-center", placing a footer there as opposed to the "esthetically-approved" location can make a substantial difference. Which is why, I guess, this appears in the Tweakers' Asylum.
Jim
http://jimtranr.com
I find that even a quarter inch change can make a significant sound change.
I also concur. Placement and weighting of the Stillpoints is critical. I have found 4 footers is superior to 3, but only if they each support reasonably equal weight, judging by the resistance to sliding. It becomes a bit maddening, actually. The only reason to persevere is the known reward! Oh and by the way, the SS Ultra's and Minis do shift and settle a bit, so you may find a footer that was locked-in 2 weeks ago is now "loose"So I start moving 4 footers a random half-inch each at a time (with no pre-determined ideal starting setup) and dialing in an even "support" for each new position and footer. Then listening for improvement or degradation.
The perfect definition of Audiophilia Nervosa. But worth it!!
But, I'm not waiting 7 days for each adjustment to settle in. That's just crazy :)
Edits: 12/04/14
.
Jim
http://jimtranr.com
I just did, but won't be able to hear what it does for a while, as my system is all down currently, so no report yet. But I will when everything gets fixed and back to normal.
AA member and tweaker, tweakmenow, did a wonderful job posting that one. E-mail me privately, and I have everything pdf'd, and can zap it over, if you desire. Happy to help (but all the credit goes to tweakmenow for a GREAT post.!) :-)
Cheers,
WS
.
Jim
http://jimtranr.com
... and thank YOU for a great follow-up post. Everything you said was right on the money, and I couldn't agree more. :-)
As usual Winston great detail and good follow up in your post. You wrote:" The BlackPods weakness is their HF extension and details, when compared to the Stillpoints."
How compliant or soft is the bottom and top of the footer? I find the softer and more compliant they are they lessen and/or soften HF more. This can be good in some systems and say for digital sources where analog sources might work better with a stiffer footer bottom and/or top. Like most things they are tunable with different composition. Think room treatment types and locations for instance.
E
T
Awe-d : you asked about compliance, so I thought I'd give a short explanation. (Yes, I agree that soft footers eat treble. And rubbery/springy footers smear by storing energy and releasing in the future. But also hard footers have their own problems, for instance a bunch of resonances, which can make them shrill.)
The overall design goals were to make them hard-coupled in the vertical (up down) direction, with no compliance; but in the other two planes, laterally, there is a small amount of movement allowed which is damped with constrained layer damping.
This is realized using two variable-density top and bottom plates, kept apart by separators that allow some lateral sliding. This is also bound with a lossy elastomer to form a constrained layer damping system.
They are topped with a lead ball. Why lead? Well I tried other materials and lead sounded the most musical. Lead normally does not have a great sound when used (randomly) on audio systems - it can make things seem slow of muffled. But in this application it just works. It's coated with a thin layer of spray-on rubber which is removable. The rubber is so thin that it has virtually no effect on SQ
Thanks for the detailed post!
E
T
Good posts. Thanks.
Okay, about the make up of the footers, Bob is Mr Zippo Lippo, i.e., he won't say much about their construction.
But just by physically looking at them, it seems obvious to me it is a multi-material approach involving layering, damping and rigidity. He did say that the rubberized covering on the lead ball helped in many ways. And the center material looks like a form of silicon, so it would seem (like Marigo and Stillpoints) that a combination of compliance and rigid tuning is employed.
Compliance usually does affect HF response in a reductive manner, I could not agree more. The Stillpoints avoids this by using very hard materials, even the Delrin damper (internally) is pretty darned hard stuff. And that probably explains the Stillpoints incredible details and HF extension.
It's all about balance, as you aptly described in your post. Again, I could not agree more.
I hope this helps you, and others, in some small way.
Cheers,
WS
Yes Delrin is quite hard. They use it on the side of cafe racer motorcycles as a first point of contact to protect the bikes bodywork in the event of a crash. Thanks for the reply!
ET
If he had used other music and none were of the genres you mentioned what would you think? Going a step further what would you think if none of the music was acoustic? Again not argumentative. TIA!
ET
would be a sampling of a variety of genres, primarily acoustic. I'd like to know, for example, if what "produces" the more noticeable growl in Ray Brown's bass imparts "thickness" to a Sarah Vaughan or Jane Monheit. Or "chestiness" to a Joao Gilberto or Sinatra. Or "darkens" the presentation of other-genre program material.
I'd also like to know how the tweak handles large-ensemble performances. Does it "place" everyone where he or she should be? Or--in a symphony, for example--are the string bassists standing in the cellists' laps?
Hope that helps.
Jim
http://jimtranr.com
I quite agree! Musical variety is good and spatial image and location is a critical area for me too. I liked reading your Tonkin paper. I really just skimmed it but will do a thorough read. I'd like to see some North Vietnamese comments from those that were there.
E
T
Thanks, Awe-d-o.
Jim
http://jimtranr.com
Winston's listening session lasted about 3-4 hours. Typically I'd say start with SP, play a track, swap to the BP, play the same track. Then, with the BP still there, I'd play a new track, than swap back to the SP. This way we got to hear both footers first and second on various music.
I chose a varied selection of musical types; in the time available we listened to a considerable number of tracks, some of them several times.
In this case I did not bother doing blind testing. That takes a lot more time and frankly wasn't needed as there is an easily noticeable difference between the two.
There was plenty of acoustic music, also single voice, massed voices, large orchestral, jazz, rock, electronic, harp, etc.
I'll leave it to Winston to describe the sound.
If you didn't blind test, then bias comes into play; so any comments are suspect and probably wrong. And when you hear something and tell Winnie what you hear, then he will hear it too. Human nature 101.
What you should do is administer a blind test with a third person changing the footers - or maybe not changing the footers, and then do separate note taking with the other person out of the room. Then your observations will have some validity. But you know all this .... right?
.... you think it would help you or someone else - or at least would be more helpful than just trying the tweak, and sharing impressions.
But of course, you won't do either. It's so much more fun to just flap your gums and stink up the air here, pretending to be "sceptical" - to cover-up simply being cheap and closed-minded.
I do blind testing all the time mate, so I am well aware of it's strengths and limitations. I am after all in the blind testing 'camp':
e.g.
http://www.madscientist-audio.com/blind-testing-canopeners/
http://www.madscientist-audio.com/blind-testing-canopeners/how-blind-test-blackdiscus/
The big downside is that to do it properly needs a lot more time and we didn't have that.
But as far as I can tell, you have already made your opinion clear : you think that this is some kind of parody or joke. So why labor the point?
Check the post: I said it reads as a parody, but I think you're serious. So I will labor the point.
I don't remember any big orchestral, Bob, but we did a shit load of comparisons, and there was so much info to digest happening so fast, maybe you slipped one in and I simply don't remember that. But I honestly do not recall any big orchestral. All the other stuff you listed, yes. If you remember what you say you played, big orchestral-wise, maybe that would refresh my recollection.
.
they are extending their introductory price of $99.00 through this Tuesday!
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
.
So what equipment were they under during this test?
... I specifically mentioned that the MSA reference system was listed in previous reviews of the MSA BlackDiscus and BlackSticks, so apparently that slipped by unnoticed.
It is a computer audio source. Currently, it feeds a Squeezebox with various mods and upgrades (ask MSA about that, not me; not my system) that feed into a custom-designed pre-dac that Bob Pragnell designed and built himself from scratch. This feeds either a super-tweaked out Moskido amplifier (an amplifier design of note that Bob Prangnell is responsible for) or a super tweaked out Goldmund Mimesis clone. Speakers are Magnepan MG 3.5s, as I recall. Bob at MSA can chime in and correct anything I may have wrong. The Goldmund clones were in the mix for this session.
Sadly, as all the equipment (save the Maggies) is custom built or tweaked, it is difficult to draw many conclusions from these descriptions. I suggest you simply inquire with MSA for particulars that interest you, or that you feel would help you understand things to your liking.
I missed the previous reviews. What is the height of the footers?
Sorry I didn't originally include the info.
Here ya go:
BlackPods- 35mm tall x 55mm diameter
Stillpoints- Ultra Mini: 25mm diameter x 32mm tall; Ultra SS : 35mm diameter x 47mm tall; Ultra 5 : 75mm diameter x 60mm tall
Don't know the exact weights of each, but they are quite substantial footers (at least the Ultra SS we tried; I cannot comment on the Stillpoints Minis or Ultra 5s, though.) No light-weights in the offerings tested.
I notice that Bob (owner) has a review of this product on his site, and ... wait for it .... likes his footers better than the Stillpoints!!! And Winston seems to echo his comments. I wonder if they were listening together and shared their notes. This whole thing reads as a parody of subjective audio impressions, but I think these guys are serious. How sad and ridiculous.
What is your problem? Of course we were listening together. He came over for listening session. Duh. And yes, we both heard the same thing. I only had them for a week, so that's why both reports are out at the same time. Spooky eh?
In Winny's breathless haste (notice all the exclamation marks!) to promote this product, he forgot to mention what equipment was used. It probably doesn't matter. They were that great!I didn't notice how the tests were administered as well. Again it doesn't matter. They were that great!
Edits: 11/30/14 11/30/14
...Insists on complete transparency.
... using the same brand footer under each component in the system?
Not that I think it's a bad idea, but certainly in my experience certain footers suit different components.
Perhaps most easily seen as the way anything with a spinning disc inside it will respond different to those without and perhaps valve versus SS.
I think I might get a couple of sets to see... hear what I think.
... it was only one set of Stillpoints Ultra SS footers that were available to be swapped back and forth between the gear, one at a time. Under the other gear were all MSA BlackPods (as one might expect being the MSA reference system.)
Hope that helps.
But what were they under?
Edits: 11/30/14
The custom made Pre-Dac and the Goldmund clone amp.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
WS
Still pushin' Mad Scientist products eh?
....which is all that really matters: performance vs. price. Low price with high performance equals excellent value, in my book.
Also, note well that I STRONGLY invite comparisons, regardless of outcome. If you don't agree with my findings, PLEASE post your own observations. Otherwise, STFU.
Besides, how many negative reviews have YOU seen about ANY MSA products on any front or forum anywhere? As far as I know, I am not aware of any, nor any returns of any MSA power cords that were ordered. If you are, let me know who, please.
If you are not going to try even ONE of MSA's products (despite all MSA products carrying a "30 day/money back/no questions asked" policy), your remarks are your normal naysaying with absolutely NO experience to support any of your snottiness. In short, your posts are utterly useless, as usual.
I have a policy of NEVER responding to your posts anymore, but this offered me an opportunity to set the record straight by pointing out you have NEVER cited ANY experience with ANY of MSA's products, despite hundreds of inmates here happily buying their offerings, with almost every comment posted by a buyer being VERY positive. Not every single one, but nearly. And that displays a fine record for MSA products, I believe.
More importantly from my own personal perspective, most posts from inmate buyers agree completely with my own observations that I state in my reviews. Again, not every one, of course, but the overwhelming majority seemed to hear exactly what I did and posted similar experiences and findings.
In short, their purchase of MSA products I reviewed made them HAPPY. And THAT makes me happy, very happy indeed. It shows my work in bringing these products to people's attention is having a positive effect in other people's lives. And isn't that what this Asylum is all about: helping one another?
(Not for you, though, and that's obvious.)
I fell for your earlier rave about the MSA power cords, tried one, ended up replacing it with a Pangea I had rewired with Furutech ends. At the price, it wasn't bad, but that's all I can say. And at the price, it's not worth the hassle of returning.
Thanks for chiming in.
Funny you should say that about the Pangea cord. Alan Maher HATED the Pangea cords and always railed against their cheap ends. Maybe that was the problem, bad ends, and your applying the Furus did the trick. Cool!
Thus, if you do not mind, I wanted to know what Furutech ends you employed? I ask because they are my absolute favorite AC terminations to install as well, and I am curious what you liked. I always preferred the plain-Jane FI-11 Cu models, as they ALWAYS gave me the most neutral and natural sounding tonal balance of every type of aftermarket AC connectors I ever tried (Oyaide, Marinco, Wattgate, etc.) AND they were the cheapest of the Furu line, as well, for a real double bonus! (Ooops. I'm not supposed to use exclamation points, as 'excitement' is strictly verboten when describing audio gear and its sonic effects.) ;-)
Another reason I ask is that I decided a while back to remove the stock MSA power cord's AC plug and IEC connector to install the very Furutech ends we are discussing (generally speaking.) It was a VERY nice improvement, but it does add to the cost, of course. Did you try that combo? I found it quite pleasing and a good improvement. Worth the extra cost to me. But the original MSA cords were very nice for the money, at least in my opinion and experience, and they never were 'bad', in any application I tried them in, so they stayed and simply were upgraded with the Furutech ends. Couldn't be happier.
Again, thanks for the post, Dave
I like the Pangeas in general but do prefer the AC-14s reterminated (not that it's easy to reterminate the AC9SEs, obviously). I use the same Furutech FI-11 Cu models that you do.
Bob offered the power cable with a choice of no-termination at the AC connector, which I opted for, and therein lay a problem. When I got it and put the Furutech connector on it, my continuity tester didn't like the result. Seems the red Chinese AC and IEC connectors he uses are labeled "backwards." That is, the L (Line) and N (Neutral) pin indicators are reversed. This doesn't matter if you're using these things on both ends of the cable, but it sure matters if you're just replacing them at one end of the cable. I had a hell of a time trying to explain this to Bob. Eventually I switched wires to the original IEC end -- the one that came with the cable -- and all was well. Should have used the Furutechs on BOTH ends and probably will.
The cable is currently linking my deHavilland 222 tapehead preamp to a PS Audio P10 power regenerator after bombing out on the link from an Aesthetix Calypso linestage to the P10. By bombing out I mean that it seemed to make everything connected to the Calypso take 1-2 sonic steps backward. Really blah.
Winston,
MSA products have been the subject of seven of your eight threads in the last eighteen months. This demonstrates a singular use of the Asylum and an apparent affiliation with MSA on your part.
Product quality is not the issue. The question is whether repeated use of the website by one member to promote a single manufacturer's products is acceptable.
Dry Ginger
MSA - 11-30-14 02.38
SHOOT-OUT: Stillpoints Ultra SS Footers vs. MSA BlackPod Footers
MSA - 11-15-2014 11.07
First Impressions: MSA “BlackPod” Footers (and a request for assistance)
Non-MSA 8-28-14 19.50
Best Material For Coating Oil Based Paint on a CD Tray?
MSA - 6-18-2014 20.02
REVIEW: MSA's Giant-Killer Power Cord @$139
MSA - 3-26-14 16.03
Preview: MSA Power Purifier Power Cords
MSA - 2-27-2014 15.47
Review: MSA "Power Purifier Double Plus"
MSA - 12-13-2013 10.46
MSA's "Black Sticks": A Review
MSA - 9-25-13 16.55
Review of new product, "Black Discus"
You make it sound like Winston does nothing but promote our products. Yes, he has started some threads on them. I guess that there are not so many interesting things in New Zealand to start threads on.
But Winston is a prolific poster - 172 posts this year.
Yes, I know Winston. He does not live close - several hours away. I see him sometimes when he drops by MSA HQ. But there's no affiliation, any more than say Duster is affiliated to VH Audio. He buys our products without any special discounts. As such he is entitled to an opinion, and is allowed to post his opinions here.
As for "The question is whether repeated use of the website by one member to promote a single manufacturer's products is acceptable."
The answer is Yes, it's OK because it's permitted by the forum rules.
a very dedicated audio phile, always on the search. I imagine moving from LA easy the NZ country certainly curtails or at least limits his quest. PRobably meeting Bob certainly fills a void.in Winston life. SO cut the guy some slack, and it seems to me that most of WS comments have been right on so far.OF course YMMV, but trying his recommendations have been spot on.
In addition, I'm sure that Bob appreciates a beta tester close by with whom he can converse and share ideas
Edits: 11/30/14
Stu nailed it in a nutshell with that last line: I'm simply a convenient beta-tester. That's all. No evil audio conspiracies, no nefarious collusion, no hidden 'quid pro quo'. It's simply that I have a decent system (when it works), an open mind, and a pair of ears I am not afraid to challenge. Oh, and I don't mind helping out up-and-coming audio designers by beta testing their products for free, and writing corresponding reviews, because I absolutely LOVE this hobby. It's the best!
So, if I can help advance the 'audio art' by beta testing and reporting what I hear, I am all for it. Very happy to help. Actually, I feel it's an honor, really.
And beta testing is nothing new for me, I should note.
Back in the USA, I have beta-tested for: Shakti Innovations: TweakAudio.com/Electronic Visionary Systems; Bybee Laboratories; Alan Maher Designs; Acoustic Solutions (superb bass traps; now defunct), and others. Basically, I was always trying this out and that out, and reporting back to the manufacturer. So again, this is nothing new for me.
What IS new is all this hostility from a few folks who seemingly NEVER try any of the tweaks they rant against, but simply appear and post their pointless musings in order to try and dissuade others from experimenting with new tweaks or products.
Usually, these types have mud (or worse) for ears, and/or no money for any of the tweaks mentioned. So they whine, rant and rave and try to sow negativity towards the product being reviewed, a product they will never have or be able to appreciate. And they know it.
What they are really doing is simply taking a 'sour grapes' attitude. They know their ears or their systems or their wallets are simply not up to snuff, and so they hate the fact that others are enjoying sonic benefits they wish they had or could enjoy. It's sad, disgusting and pathetic.
But far worse, they are possibly dissuading some readers from giving something a try that might make a great improvement in the listener's playback. And that is simply wrong. Nor very nice or considerate. It is, in short, very selfish.
This is an audio "Tweaks" forum. It is for open-minded people who want to take their systems to the next level of performance by trying new products and techniques and by engaging in activities and evaluations most average listeners would not even dream of trying.
Those who come here and do nothing but spew negativity and naysaying without EVER trying any of the products they rail against, should simply leave this forum to those who use for its intended purpose: the advancement of cutting edge products and techniques that seek and serve to improve audio reproduction and, ultimately, the deeper and more pleasurable enjoyment of music for the listener.
Relax
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