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I have e-mailed Oyaide and Furutech in an attempt to get them to manufacture 15, 20 and 30 amp service panel, audiophile-grade circuit breakers. I suggested that they choose the designs/implementations of the three largest electrical suppliers in the US on which to base their replacement breakers; Square D, Cutler-Hammer and General Electric? I know UL approval is an issue and I know about the $10,0000.00 audiophile sub-panel. Why not something a little closer to reality, that we can all afford? I'm sure at least some of you will have an opinion and with enough support and demand, perhaps we can persuade them to manufacture a product which will yield much improved AC power delivery and sound, utilizing better materials and metallurgy. Who's with me?
Follow Ups:
Why not just take a quality-oriented circuit-breaker / sub-panel and have it properly cryo-treated via full immersion via Jena Labs or Cryo International?
I'd venture that if you did, you'd have the best performing circuit-breaker / sub-panel in your neck of the woods.
But you still have the Romex wire to cryo as well. My 4 dedicated lines are cryo'ed but not my circuit breakers or service panel.
It's been a few years since I've checked but there's a few silver (not copper) service panels out there.
Why not purchase the Square D type NF panel
You will get bolt on connections, larger frame size and internal components
Higher frame bracing
This is the best one could ask for in a home
I think you may be missing the point. I am suggesting audiophile quality breakers in 15, 20 and 30 amp sizes, to populate the box. Not the box itself.
I think you may be missing the point. I am suggesting audiophile quality breakers in 15, 20 and 30 amp sizes, to populate the box. Not the box itself.
dcuhl
dcuhl,
I believe you missed deafbykhorns point. The panelboard he suggests is a commercial/industrial grade panel. And it is listed for use in the USA.I notice you keep posting the use of a 30 amp breaker for use to protect the branch circuit. If the receptacle/s that will be connected to the branch circuit are 15 amp and or 20 amp rated receptacles then that would be a code violation to connect them to a 30 amp breaker. The largest breaker handle size for 2 or more 15 amp rated receptacles and or a 20 amp rated receptacle/s is 20 amps.
Just using Square D QO or QOB (bolt on) breakers for an example the size of the current carrying delivery metals from the panel bus connection, the breaking contacts, and load connection terminals are exactly the same for a 15 amp, 20 amp, 30 amp, 40 amp, and I believe 50 amp breaker. The only difference in the breakers is the magnetic trip and thermal overload trip settings.
A 30 amp breaker should never be used when 15 or 20 amp rated receptacles are used. There is absolutely no need.
Edits: 07/29/14
Understood. I thought 30 amp was a bit excessive, but I was trying to be inclusive to others current demands. Still 15 and 20 amp audiophile grade breakers is my desire and the potentially huge difference that they could make. I'm quite curious as to the specifics of the Isoclean/Siemens breakers. What's plated, what's different and how their construction is different, etc.?
Do you think the breaker is more important or the wiring type? Silver is the best conductor followed by copper then gold. Homes usually use copper and mobile homes often use aluminum. Either way, the same electricity gets to the outlet. Did you think electricity could be better with a different breaker type? I don't mean to be rude, I just want to understand. Now shielded wire might help. It is like wanting a 1080p TV when movies are 720p or wanting a 1" water line after the 3/4" shutoff valve
nt
I know, but what if one were to get the copper buss bar from Square D or have a duplicate made out of as pure a copper as possible and have it plated with silver, rhodium, gold, pick one or a few, have it polished and then replace the one in the service panel with the newly "minted" one. Then how would it sound, what would be revealed?
Can someone please show me where conductor types affect music quality? I seriously doubt it. Electricity is electricity. Are we forgetting the other things that we know affect the sound?
Does an Oyaide R-1 outlet sound different from an Oyaide R-0? Yes, it does. Why? Materials and plating differences effect the "flavor" of the current.
"Flavor of the current"? Are you serious?
Not the "flavor" of the current. Different metals "flavor" the sound that the current provides.
I would be very interested to see this documented
nt
They are both important. Does a $2.00 dollar AC outlet from Lowe's sound the same as a $45.00 Pass and Seymour from the electrical supply store? No. Does the sound from the Pass and Seymour surpass that of an Oyaide R-0? Yes. Do all amplifiers sound the same? No. Any system is as good as its weakest link. What I'm saying, or trying to, is that we all have the same weakest link. A $5,000.00 power conditioner attached to the service panels breaker using cryo-treated 12/3 from VH Audio that feeds your $3,000.00 worth of front end gear with their $500.00 power cords are still subject to the same poor AC performance due to the breaker. For example: Cutler-Mammer makes 2 bare service panels of the same size and configuration, one has a "regular" buss bar, the other which ic 33% more expensive, uses a copper buss bar. Which do you think will sound better? They operate the same. I don't know for certain but, I can make an educated guess that the one with the copper buss will sound better and for the $50.00 more, I'd buy that one. Why? Because the material of the buss makes an auditory difference in the sound of the system. Just like the breakers do. The sound of your system originates from your connection to the grid. I could change the service panel to get a better buss bar feeding the circuit(s) or have a $6,100.00 Isoclean sub panel installed - too much work and/or too expensive. But replacing a $6.00 standard breaker for a better designed, better made one that uses better metallurgy, I can do that and it will change the quality of sound that comes from my system for the better. Now with all that said, sorry for the length, we just need someone, like Furutech and/or Oyaide, to build better, audiophile grade breakers.
Edits: 07/19/14
Bus bars make a world of a difference sound wise. I've tried numerous till I found the right one, it had IEC code printed on its sleeve but looked like the rest, thicker doesn't indicate better performance, I guess one should buy some and try.
As for audio grade MCBs, none exist to my knowledge, but why not get the Siemens 5sx21 for a few $ that Isoclean use in their sub panels and cost $Ks. There's a new Siemens line 5SL something manufactured in eastern Europe that can be connected by bars from both ends, both clamps are made of copper alloy and sound terrific-natural and analog.
Don't know if you red my post about my MCBs sound trials, IMO there's nothing out there that can make a breakthrough. Good luck.
"For example: Cutler-Mammer makes 2 bare service panels of the same size and configuration, one has a "regular" buss bar, the other which ic 33% more expensive, uses a copper buss bar. Which do you think will sound better?"
Do you have a link?
No link, but I did make the drive to Home Depot and saw it/them in person.
How do you know "the material of the buss makes an auditory difference in the sound of the system"?
I don't for a fact, its a hypothesis. Power cables made from different materials, sound different. Do they not? Why would that not translate to the type of material used to make the buss bar?
They would be counterfeit breakers.... Square D has sued manufactures that have made Square D counterfeit breakers.
Only the manufactures' Listed breaker for the manufactures' electrical panel can be installed in the electrical panel per NEC code.
The counterfeit Square D breakers were found to be the cause of electrical fires because the breakers were not tripping open on overload current and or short circuit condition faults.
If you buy a new home built after 2009 most of the 120V 15 and 20 amp branch circuits used for lighting and receptacles have to be AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter) type breakers. Receptacles have to be tamper resistant for child safety. I do not believe any current Hi-Fi duplex receptacles sold today are tamper resistant.
http://www.aaudioimports.com/ShowProduct.asp?hProduct=64
circuit breakers I've seen in the US, at the very least the GEs in my current panel.
Screws on both ends of the breakers? Whose electrical design is this, anywho?
The "screws on both ends of the breakers" appear to be rivets that hold the case together. GE , Square D, etc. have similar rivets on the sides.
They look nothing like my breakers' physical format - no rivets on the ends and wire comes out of one end, compared to the hidden wires at the photo. One end of the GE is short and has pressure contacts to secure it to the supply buss and the other end is the screw for the outgoing wire.
> > > > > 9 Siemens 32A Breakers < < < < < <It is a code violation of NEC code to use that non Listed panelboard in the USA. If a license electrician installed that panelboard he could lose his electrical license in the event of an electrical fire or personal injury.
It is also against NEC code to connect NEMA 5-15R 15 amp or NEMA 5-20-R 20 amp receptacles to a 32 amp branch circuit breaker.
Maximum branch circuit breaker handle rating size is 20 amp for two or more 15 amp rated receptacles and or a 20 amp rated receptacle.
Edits: 07/15/14
I can remember pre NEC days....
One home I lived in used cartridge fuses and had three of them for the entire two bedroom house. One Fuse for the kitchen, one for the lights, and one for all the outlets.
Another I lived in had those glass type screw in fuses: a lot safer to change than those cartridge type.
NEC codes were developed for the lowest common denominator types: people who were too cheap or too stupid to install enough current distribution means for the electrical usage. Of course when those houses were built people had far fewer appliances, but still.
Consider even modern homes which meet code. It is not uncommon to have several (say three for the sake of convenience) duplex outlets in series in one room attached to one breaker. The breaker is standardized at 15 amps, and so are the duplex outlets. Suppose you plugged in a 15 amp draw device in each duplex and turned them all on: That's 45 amps on one 15 amp breaker...So much for the common sense of the NEC rules...
The rules are there to promote some degree of common sense and some standardization. But to prohibit use of a 32 amp breaker is just plain silly as long as the cable gauge is sufficient to carry the full current. After all, we have 50 amp breakers (they are 240 volt so can run the same wire gauge).
Even for purely safety reasons, should the wire gauge be appropriate for the increase breaker size, there really is nothing wrong with doing so. Yeah you break the law, but how many of you follow speed limits dogmatically ?
As a kid I had the duty to pull the ceramic fuse plugs and replace the fuse like wire. The cartridge or glass fuse would have been a technological advancement but not necessarily better or as cost effective.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
I can remember pre NEC days....
Wow Stu you are old! LOL....> > > > > > > >
One home I lived in used cartridge fuses and had three of them for the entire two bedroom house. One Fuse for the kitchen, one for the lights, and one for all the outlets.
Another I lived in had those glass type screw in fuses: a lot safer to change than those cartridge type.
The old Edison Base Plug Fuses, I remember them well. A fuse would blow and Dad would stick a penny behind the fuse. It's a miracle he didn't burn down the house.
> > >NEC codes were developed for the lowest common denominator types: people who were too cheap or too stupid to install enough current distribution means for the electrical usage. Of course when those houses were built people had far fewer appliances, but still.
NEC code is bare minimum after all.
> > > >
Consider even modern homes which meet code. It is not uncommon to have several (say three for the sake of convenience) duplex outlets in series in one room attached to one breaker. The breaker is standardized at 15 amps, and so are the duplex outlets. Suppose you plugged in a 15 amp draw device in each duplex and turned them all on: That's 45 amps on one 15 amp breaker...So much for the common sense of the NEC rules...
Well actually in the case of a cord and plug connected appliance or piece of equipment which uses a 15 amp plug the appliance/equipment cannot have an FLA that exceeds 12 amps. So 3 X 12 = 36 amps which would overload the circuit and hopefully cause the 15 amp breaker to trip open at some point. To this day in a residential dwelling unit there is not any limit on how many duplex receptacles that can be installed on a 15 or 20 amp branch circuit. You could have a 15 amp branch circuit feeding a large living room with 50 duplex receptacles if you so wanted....
There is a limit for the number of receptacles installed on a branch circuit in a commercial or industrial building.
> > > >The rules are there to promote some degree of common sense and some standardization. But to prohibit use of a 32 amp breaker is just plain silly as long as the cable gauge is sufficient to carry the full current. After all, we have 50 amp breakers (they are 240 volt so can run the same wire gauge).
As for the US the 32 amp breaker mentioned cannot be used. It is not Listed for use in the US.The panelboard is not a Recognized Listed assembly and there for per NEC Code cannot be installed in the US.
> > > > > > >.
The breaker handle rating determines the size of the branch circuit, not the wire size. For a specific size breaker a minimum wire size shall be used. There is no maximum wire size.
NEC 210.3 Rating
Branch circuits recognized by this article shall be rated in accordance with the maximum permitted ampere rating or setting of the overcurrent device. The rating for other individual branch circuits shall be 15, 20, 30, 40, and 50 amperes. Where conductors of higher ampacity are used for any reason, the ampere rating or setting of the specified overcurrent device shall determine the circuit rating.
Where conductors of higher ampacity are used for any reason, the ampere rating or setting of the specified overcurrent device shall determine the circuit rating.
> > > > > > > > > >
Even for purely safety reasons, should the wire gauge be appropriate for the increase breaker size, there really is nothing wrong with doing so. Yeah you break the law, but how many of you follow speed limits dogmatically ?
NEC 2011 Table 210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Rating for Various Size Circuits
Circuit Rating ...... Receptacle Rating
...(Amperes) ...........(Amperes)
...15 .................. Not over 15
...20 ................... 15 or 20
...30 ..................... 30
...40 ................. 40 or 50
...50 .................... 50
Only 15 amp receptacle/s can be installed on a 15 amp branch circuit.
20 amp receptacle/s can only be installed on a 20 amp branch circuit.
Two or more 15 amp receptacles can be installed on a 20 amp branch circuit. ( A duplex receptacle = two receptacles.)
A single 15 amp receptacle can only be installed on a 15 amp branch circuit.
Jim
Edits: 07/20/14
Hi Jim,
If you have a 15 amp receptacle in series with a 20 am receptacle on a 20 amp branch circuit, does all the wire have to be 12ga, or can the wire to the 15 amp receptacle be 14ga.?
Dave
If you have a 15 amp receptacle in series with a 20 amp receptacle on a 20 amp branch circuit, does all the wire have to be 12ga, or can the wire to the 15 amp receptacle be 14ga.?
Dave,
All the 20 amp branch circuit in wall wiring must be #12.
Minimum in wall wire size for a 20 amp branch circuit is #12. It can be larger, just not smaller.Receptacles are not in series with one another they are in parallel with one another. When the receptacle is used as a junction/splice to feed the hot and neutral conductors, wires, from one receptacle to the next the receptacles they are still in parallel with one another. Many do call this configuration as "daisy chaining" the receptacles. (The receptacle shall not be used as a splice point for the safety equipment grounding conductor.
Jim
Edits: 07/21/14
receptacles are wired in parallel...never in series, If the wire is 12 ga, only then can a 20 amp receptacle be used. You cannot use different size wire in a circuit.
Perhaps seek, but cannot afford. This is what I mentioned in the post as being unattainable, but by a few. I mean upgraded replacement circuit breakers, better, less vibratory shielded housings and better quality innards with much better conducting metals and more "grippy" hardware. Somewhere to the magnitude of the AC recepticles that Oyaide and Furutech currently produce. The aforementioned, is more of what I had in mind. My apologies if I was unclear.
Perhaps three different valued breakers, 15, 20 and 30 amp and adapters for the different service panels. 1 adapter for Square D, 1 for Siemens, 1 for Cutler-Hammer etc., same breaker. The breaker would need to be physically smaller in order for it and the adapter to both fit the physical space limitations of the various service panels. Even with the screw on adapters added connection(s), with improved materials (glass-filled resin housings coated with Sendust) and metallurgy (highly polished Berrillium Copper, Silver, Gold, Irridium, Rhodium, whatever, contacts and hardware) would be better sounding than what currently occupies the space in my service panel. I submit that the potential for improvement is vast.
Further thoughts are welcomed and thanks to all for your input.
as even if the isoclean had US rated seimiens breaker (thanks jea48; perhaps it is just supposed to hang there like wall bling?!?) while they may be good they are not purpose built for sound quality.
I can tell you this, even though I use Oyaide in manufacturing they are not in my experience receptive to those type of requests. I as well as Joe Cohen , and I am sure other cable mfg. have pushed for a 20 amp version of the 004 iec. They don't even have to retool or make anything new as they already make the body and plug they just need labelling and packaging.....
UL approval which is quite expensive
Why not? I'm with you. We may find that this is THE bottleneck in power delivery in the house.
I don't know about a bottleneck, but certain to be a big change for the better.
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