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If I have 2 mono-block amps (10 amp protection fuse, 1 per amp - 15 amp power cord IEC's, 1 per amp) on a dedicated 15 amp circuit breaker protected line, what is to be gained/lost by upping the breaker to a 20 amp breaker in the service panel?
Follow Ups:
Sorry to get away from the topic. How many amps do your amps draw? If everything works now, there will be no advantage to going to a 20 amp breaker. Power is power. As long as the 15 amp breaker is not tripping off, the size of the breaker makes no difference.
Agree with Blackdog but take the step to upgrade the wiring to 12 ga and then install the 20 A breaker. That should benefit the AC supply and therefore the sound. Best implemented as a dedicated line for the sound system.
Mike
Unless the wire going to the receptacles is 12 gauge, do not increase the breaker to 20A. Not only is it against the electrical code, but presents a fire hazard as well (although small hazard.
I doubt your amps will ever draw their full current at the same time anyway.
Dan Santoni
My apologies, I forgot to mention that the line is currently 12 gauge romex. Thanks to all those who respond. I appreciate the advice.
Unless the 15 amp breaker is tripping on power-up when turning on your audio equipment changing the 15 amp breaker to a 20 amp will not yield any sonics benefit from your system. The current carrying guts inside a 15 amp breaker are exactly as the same as the 20 amp breaker. Only the trip sensing units are different.
Now if you are using 20 amp receptacles on the 15 amp branch circuit then you should change the breaker to a 20 amp. It is a violation of NEC electrical code to install 20 amp receptacles on a 15 amp branch circuit.
(The breaker handle rating determines the size of the branch circuit.)
Jim
I was told by an electrician that if the receptacle is 20 amp and the wire is 12 gauge or larger, it is code with a 15 amp breaker. This is because the breaker will trip long before the wire overheats. The link provides an explanation similar to what he gave me.
Dave
I was told by an electrician that if the receptacle is 20 amp and the wire is 12 gauge or larger, it is code with a 15 amp breaker. This is because the breaker will trip long before the wire overheats. The link provides an explanation similar to what he gave me.
Hi Dave,
Your electrician told you wrong.
NEC 2011 Table 210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Rating for Various Size Circuits
Circuit Rating ...... Receptacle Rating
...(Amperes) ...........(Amperes)
...15 .................. Not over 15
...20 ................... 15 or 20
...30 ..................... 30
...40 ................. 40 or 50
...50 .................... 50
As you can see from the table a NEMA 5-20R 20 amp receptacle can only be installed on a 20 amp branch circuit.
Note that two or more 15 amp receptacle can be installed on a 20 amp circuit per NEC Code. A duplex is two receptacles.
NEC 2011 210.21(B)(3)
Receptacle Rating. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles or outlets, receptacles ratings shall conform to the values listed in table 210.21(B)(3),
The breaker handle rating determines the size of the branch circuit.
Example a 15 amp branch circuit is a circuit with a 15 amp breaker. Minimum size wire of #14 awg ga. The wire can be bigger than #14 but not smaller.
Edits: 06/18/14
NEC Article 100 - Branch Circuit Definition
A branch circuit is a portion of a wiring system that extends beyond the final, automatic overcurrent protective device (i.e., fuse or breaker) which qualifies for use as branch-circuit protection, and terminates at the utilization device or outlet (such as a lighting fixture, motor, or heater).
"beyond" not "including". The circuit breaker is the Code-required branch-circuit protection.
If you have a better source, please provide it. I do want to know if I am wrong about this.
Dave
Hi Dave,
I think this will make it clearer for you.
2011 NEC Code, page 70-48
NEC 210.3 Rating
Branch circuits recognized by this article shall be rated in accordance with the maximum permitted ampere rating or setting of the overcurrent device. The rating for other individual branch circuits shall be 15, 20, 30, 40, and 50 amperes. Where conductors of higher ampacity are used for any reason, the ampere rating or setting of the specified overcurrent device shall determine the circuit rating.
NEC Article 100 - Branch Circuit DefinitionA branch circuit is a portion of a wiring system that extends beyond the final, automatic overcurrent protective device (i.e., fuse or breaker) which qualifies for use as branch-circuit protection, and terminates at the utilization device or outlet (such as a lighting fixture, motor, or heater).
"beyond" not "including". The circuit breaker is the Code-required branch-circuit protection.
If you have a better source, please provide it. I do want to know if I am wrong about this.
Dave
Hi Dave,
From NEC 2011 Code book word for word.
Quote.
Article 100 Definitions.
Branch Circuit. The circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlets(s).
Page 70-27Not sure what point you are trying to make though.
.
.
.
Again.NEC Code prohibits a 20 amp rated receptacle from being installed on a 15 amp branch circuit.
NEC 2011 Table 210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Rating for Various Size CircuitsCircuit Rating ........ Receptacle Rating
..(Amperes) ...............(Amperes)
..... 15 .................. Not over 15
..... 20 ................. 15 or 20
..... 30 ................... 30
..... 40 ............... 40 or 50
..... 50 .................. 50
As you can see from the table a NEMA 5-20R 20 amp receptacle can only be installed on a 20 amp branch circuit. It cannot be installed on a 15 amp branch circuit.
Note that two or more 15 amp receptacles can be installed on a 20 amp circuit per NEC Code. A duplex is two receptacles.
NEC 2011 210.21(B)(3)
Receptacle Rating. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles or outlets, receptacles ratings shall conform to the values listed in table 210.21(B)(3),
Jim
Edits: 06/19/14 06/19/14
- NEC Code prohibits a 20 amp rated receptacle from being installed on a 15 amp branch circuit.
I agree. (Of course it wouldn't matter if I disagreed because NEC Code still prohibits it no matter what I think.)
What I am saying is that if the wire is 12ga or fatter (lower ga) it is a 20 amp branch, even if it has a 15 amp breaker, because the breaker is not part of the branch.
So, 14ga wire with a 20 amp outlet = code violation, but not a 12ga wire with a 20 amp outlet, even if the breaker is 15 amps.
Dave
What I am saying is that if the wire is 12ga or fatter (lower ga) it is a 20 amp branch, even if it has a 15 amp breaker, because the breaker is not part of the branch.No, it is still a 15 amp branch circuit even if the wire size is #10 or #8. The overcurrent device, breaker in this instance, determines the size of the branch circuit.
So, 14ga wire with a 20 amp outlet = code violation, but not a 12ga wire with a 20 amp outlet, even if the breaker is 15 amps.
, but not a 12ga wire with a 20 amp outlet, even if the breaker is 15 amps.
False.
NEC 210.3 Rating
Branch circuits recognized by this article shall be rated in accordance with the maximum permitted ampere rating or setting of the overcurrent device. The rating for other individual branch circuits shall be 15, 20, 30, 40, and 50 amperes. Where conductors of higher ampacity are used for any reason, the ampere rating or setting of the specified overcurrent device shall determine the circuit rating.
Where conductors of higher ampacity are used for any reason, the ampere rating or setting of the specified overcurrent device shall determine the circuit rating.
conductors of higher ampacity = bigger, larger, fatter.
Your electrician told you wrong and the Link you provided is wrong. Even electricians can read the code wrong as the ME did in the Link you provided.Here are a couple of Links you can read
http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/20-amp-outlet-15-amp-circuit-25420/
http://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/20787/is-it-ok-to-have-a-20-amp-receptacle-on-a-circuit-with-12-awg-wiring-and-a-15-am
If the wire is #12 all the way from the 20 amp duplex receptacle(s) to the breaker just change out the 15 amp breaker to a 20 amp breaker. All will be fine in the land of code.
Edit. Total length of the branch circuit must be #12 wire.Jim
Edits: 06/20/14 06/20/14 06/20/14 06/20/14
The second link makes it clear. It is not code. Thank you for setting me straight on this. As you say, just change the breaker. Its not like they are all that expensive.
Dave
Who were you writing this to? I know this stuff in my sleep...did I say a 20 amp breaker can be installed in a 15 amp. circuit? If I did it was a mistake. Fact is 20 amp receptacles are rare and seldom used. As far as I know there is no limit on the # of 15 amp outlets that can be installed on a 20 amp circuit. We are getting away from the original question.
Who were you writing this to? I know this stuff in my sleep...did I say a 20 amp breaker can be installed in a 15 amp. circuit? If I did it was a mistake. Fact is 20 amp receptacles are rare and seldom used. As far as I know there is no limit on the # of 15 amp outlets that can be installed on a 20 amp circuit. We are getting away from the original question.
cloudwalker
cloudwalker,I was responding to member Crazy Dave.
I know this stuff in my sleep...
cloudwalker
I know a little about this stuff as well. I worked in the commercial/industrial electrical trade for 40 plus years.
We are getting away from the original question.
cloudwalker
I correctly answered the OPs question long ago.
I have also answered questions asked of me by you and Dave.For your info NEMA 5-20R 20 amp receptacles are not rare.
Best regards,
Jim
Edits: 06/20/14 06/20/14
I think we are arguing the same point. I never read the NEC code because I was too busy building homes. I just followed the basic rules and used my head. Such as the breaker must be large enough for any wire use downstream. But I also know that most electricians would never put a 15 amp breaker on a circuit wired with 12 ga wire. They would make sure everything downstream would carry the load but most use 15 amp receptacles. Try to buy a 20 amp receptacle. It is not easy and is spendy. Electricians want to "sell" their work, and 15 amp circuits trip the breaker much more often so if they spend the money on wiring, they are surely going to use the best sized breaker they can. It is interesting you bring this up. Most outlets have either 2 or 4 siring holes (forgot what they are called) but until recently it was easy to insert 12 ga wire into those holes. But it can still be done with enough force. I am NOT here to argue. We are way off the subject anyway.
I think you do have a good point, questioning why you would do it. I think the question come up because most "audiophile" receptacles that I am aware of are 20 amp. My main point is that it is not dangerous because all that would happen is that the circuit would trip early. I think there may be some, audio gear that pulls 20 amps is very uncommon. I have never seen any.
Dave
Here are the numbers...a breaker is designed to "trip" at 80% of it's rated load. A 15 amp breaker trips at about 1440 watts being passed through. It would be very unlikely that 2 audio amps would use that much unless it was for a live performance but they know very well what is needed. We have gotten away from the original question. There is no need to increase the breaker size and a 15 amp breaker was probably put there for a reason to start with. The weak link in the system would be an extension cord. A 20 amp breaker DOES NOT require 20 amp receptacles. I am 100% sure about that. If an electrician says that, I would question his credentials.
I agree that A 20 amp breaker DOES NOT require 20 amp receptacles. There is no chance of overloading the branch. What the electrician said to me was that with 12ga wire and a 20 amp outlet, that your are still code with a 15amp breaker. Again, there is no chance of overloading the circuit.
Dave
Thanks all for the advice. The configuration is as follows: Square-D Service Panel > Square-D 15 amp Breaker > 12 gauge Romex (solid core) > Duplex Box > Pass & Seymore 20 amp 8300 Recepticle > Pangea Power Cords > Amps (Monoblock's - 15 amp cord plugs, both sides inlet/outlet, 10 amp slo-blo protection fuse(s) - one per amp).
My thought was that ONE of the amps, might be keeping the other amp from drawing all the current that it needs during complex/loud passages, in a parasitic way.
Like I said in my last post unless the 15 amp breaker is tripping due to overload conditions, changing the breaker from a 15 to a 20 amp will not make any difference in sound from your system.
What may make a difference is how you terminated the #12 solid core wires on the Pass & Seymore 20 amp 8300 Receptacle.
*Did you curl the wire around the terminal screws and then tighten the screw down on the wires?
Or, did you insert each straight wire under the terminal plate and then tighten the screw down against the terminal plate?
.
*Did you terminate/connect the hot and neutral conductors across from one another on the same receptacle? With this type of termination/connection the other rectacle of the duplex is fed from the small connecting tie tabs.
Or, did you connect the hot wire on one receptacle of the duplex and the neutral wire to the other receptacle so the connecting tie tabs will evenly pass current to each receptacle?
Or did you.... install small jumpers around the connecting tie tabs of the duplex receptacle?
Jim
Sorry for the delayed response. The hot lead is curved around the leading screw terminal, neutral wire curved around trailing screw terminal, in a catty-cornered fashion with two, .1uF 275 VAC x2 caps, one per terminal pair, bridging hot and neutral to help reduce AC line noise. No small jumpers were installed, in hind-sight I should have done that.
Things are about to change, as I will be swapping out the Pass and Seymor 8300 for an Oyaide R-0 outlet. I have been pondering which of the tweek materials I have, to use during the swap and there are many, such as: ERS cloth, Silver Electricians Paste, Copper Foil, Copper Tape with Conductive Adhesive, TI Shield, Metglas, as well as, an assortment of Crystals, Minerals and Rare Metal Samples, though no iridium, a bit pricey.
I am not an electrician, but was a contractor and wired many homes and am friends with many electricians. An electrician would never put a 15 amp breaker on a circuit that used 12 ga. wire. How do you know it is 12 ga wire throughout the circuit? True 20 amp receptacles are rare. They use a t shaped hot prong. The ONLY difference going up in breaker size would do is prevent breaker tripping. It is not against the law to put an oversize breaker on a circuit, but if you have a fire and make an insurance claim, be sure they will inspect things and they will find out if you had an appropriate sized breaker. It makes no difference if you curve the wire or not. My advice is don't mess with it...
I did mess, but I had an electrician supervise it (also relative). I know it is code.
Dave
If you do change the breaker to 20A, you also need to change the receptacles to 20A
Dan Santoni
If you do change the breaker to 20A, you also need to change the receptacles to 20A
Dan Santoni
Hi Dan,
Per NEC electrical code 2 or more 15 amp receptacles can be installed on a 20 amp branch circuit. (A duplex receptacle is 2 receptacles.)
Jim
Things must be different where you live. By code each bathroom needs to be on a separate GFI circuit. A kitchen needs to have 2 GFI circuits and a receptacle needs to be on every 12" of counter. A garage needs it's own GFI circuit. up to 2 bedrooms can be on a circuit. Smoke detectors need to be tied together and on it's own circuit. there is no limit on living, dining or rec rooms but a receptacle needs to be on every 12' of wall. There needs to be at least 1 covered receptacle outside. The rest are 220 appliances. Most electricians use 15 amp circuits (14 ga wire) for the living room and lights and most use 15 amp receptacles on 20 amp circuits. Forgive me if I am wrong, but that is what happens in the real world. Also a receptacle cannot be over 48" high on an inside wall but there is no lower limit. I am afraid to say anything because codes may have changed in the last 5 years. I will give you an example. NEC code used to require 1 72" ground rod sticking just above the ground. One day an inspector tripped over it and now they require 2 ground rods completely buried because they got sued...
Things must be different where you live. By code each bathroom needs to be on a separate GFI circuit. A kitchen needs to have 2 GFI circuits and a receptacle needs to be on every 12" of counter. A garage needs it's own GFI circuit. up to 2 bedrooms can be on a circuit. Smoke detectors need to be tied together and on it's own circuit. there is no limit on living, dining or rec rooms but a receptacle needs to be on every 12' of wall. There needs to be at least 1 covered receptacle outside. The rest are 220 appliances. Most electricians use 15 amp circuits (14 ga wire) for the living room and lights and most use 15 amp receptacles on 20 amp circuits. Forgive me if I am wrong, but that is what happens in the real world. Also a receptacle cannot be over 48" high on an inside wall but there is no lower limit. I am afraid to say anything because codes may have changed in the last 5 years. I will give you an example. NEC code used to require 1 72" ground rod sticking just above the ground. One day an inspector tripped over it and now they require 2 ground rods completely buried because they got sued...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
RE: Circuit breaker - Equipment protection fuse question.
Posted by Blackdog (M) on June 12, 2014 at 12:16:19
In Reply to: RE: Circuit breaker - Equipment protection fuse question. posted by jea48 on June 12, 2014 at 06:37:18:
If you do change the breaker to 20A, you also need to change the receptacles to 20A
Dan Santoni
> > > > > > > > > > >
My response to dan.
Hi Dan,
Per NEC electrical code 2 or more 15 amp receptacles can be installed on a 20 amp branch circuit. (A duplex receptacle is 2 receptacles.)
Jim
> > > > > > > > > >
cloudwalker,
NEC 2011 Table 210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Rating for Various Size Circuits
Circuit Rating ...... Receptacle Rating
...(Amperes) ...........(Amperes)
...15 .................. Not over 15
...20 ................... 15 or 20
...30 ..................... 30
...40 ................. 40 or 50
...50 .................... 50
As you can see from the table a NEMA 5-20R 20 amp receptacle can only be installed on a 20 amp branch circuit.
Note that two or more 15 receptacles can be installed on a 20 amp circuit per NEC code. A duplex is 2 receptacles.
NEC 2011 210.21(B)(3)
Receptacle Rating. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles or outlets, receptacles ratings shall conform to the values listed in table 210.21(B)(3),
The breaker handle rating determines the size of the branch circuit.
Example a 15 amp branch circuit is a circuit with a 15 amp breaker. Minimum size wire used, #14 awg ga. The wire can be bigger than #14 but not smaller.Remember NEC Code is bare minimum electrical safety standards.
Residential electrical contractors use #14 awg ga wire for 15 amp branch circuits because NEC Code says that is the bare minimum size they can use. A contractor can use #12 awg ga wire for 15 amp branch circuits if he so chooses? Why doesn't he? LOL, it would be money out of his pocket that's why. The home builder sure isn't going to pay for it.
Jim
Edits: 06/18/14
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