Tweakers' Asylum

Hear is what you said about carbon grease, Stu

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Tweaker456

In Reply to: RE: NEVER said that posted by 55811 on May 07, 2014 at 13:53:48

Carbon
Posted by unclestu (D) on September 15, 2013 at 12:26:45
In Reply to: RE: Sorry posted by Tweaker456 on August 25, 2013 at 14:32:25:

has higher resistance than copper, silver or gold. Why insert a layer of carbon between mating surfaces of such metals?

Follow Ups:

RE: Hear is what you said about carbon grease, Stu - unclestu 15:56:08 05/09/14 (23)
That's carbon grease and I still maintain that what I said holds true. Most audiophile conductive greases are colloidal solutions of either copper or silver, and are designed to fill on mating surface gaps with the higher conductivity metal.

Carbon is much higher in conductivity than the metals. YOU may like the effect, but I suspect you are hearing a smoothness caused by the carbon resistance. IF you like it, fine, it's no skin off my back.

There are many ways to skin a cat, so to speak, however.

George Cardas endorses Rhodium plating not because it has low resistance, but because rhodium is very hard and when plated has a very smooth surface. When a rhodium plated jack is mated with a rhodium plug, the two smooth surfaces makes a greater overall contact patch than a precious metal one, and thus lowers overall resistance. (No affiliation with Cardas, BTW, not even as a dealer).

Gold and silver ends and jacks being precious metals are extremely soft. The mating surfaces will gall upon insertion and thus reduce the contact patch, with the scraped material literally lifting the mating surfaces apart. With time, much of this will flatten out, and is perhaps one reason why there is "break in" on cables. You can check this yourself by simply twisting an IC end. The sound will change, usually brighter.

Conductive greases are made by those who recognize this issue. That being said, it is a band aide cure for a more fundamental issue.

I have advocated using Ford dielectric grease. Developed by Ford Motor Company, who places their on board computers under the hood, it seals the connectors and prevents corrosion from setting in. It is an insulated grease, however, and being a grease may be also lubricating the insertion process and reduce galling, in addition to reducing contamination and corrosion.

Again YMMV.
- RE: Hear is what you said about carbon grease, Stu - Duster 17:37:00 05/09/14 (22)
  I believe the hardness and smoothness of rhodium, plated over the softer high-conductivity silver substrate, plated over the lower-conductivity hard brass base metal is also involved in the Cardas plating concept with the issues of contact resistance and skin effect in mind.
  - Some further thoughts on ends - unclestu 23:44:25 05/09/14 (19)
    Remember Enid Lumley, the tweaker who once wrote for TAS?
    She wrote that her ends sounded better if she literally sanded the plating off, to the copper base plated layer. Of course she ran into issues with corrosion, but she claimed that it made a huge difference in sound. Tried it once and indeed the cables did sound better: more dynamics and detail, but, ah, resale value plummeted.
    She simply recommended cramolin as the only treatment for the ends, IIRC.
    Of course that was quite a while back and she unfortunately was sort of laughed out of the Audio business. Many of her pronouncements turned out to be correct when I have gotten the nerve to try them, however....
    To Enid, wherever she may be, my apologies for laughing....
    Also another thought. Jim Patric, the founder and builder of Music Metre cables, claimed that filing the contact point of RCA ends where the cable made contact with the end before soldering, also improved the sound, by allowing the signal to go to the base metal before going through all the plating layers, which it would still have to do at the contact end. I found the solder used made a bigger difference but haven't revisited the concept recently.
    Again FWIW and YMMV
    
    Edits: 05/09/14
    - RE: Some further thoughts on ends - Duster 18:00:56 05/11/14 (3)
      "...filing the contact point of RCA ends where the cable made contact with the end before soldering, also improved the sound, by allowing the signal to go to the base metal before going through all the plating layers, which it would still have to do at the contact end..."
      
      Because the plating is the primary conductive layer, that aspect may be in part, why a silver plated copper connector for digital and line-level applications tends to sound preferable to a gold plated type, to my ear.
      - Wouldn't - unclestu 23:21:11 05/11/14 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Some further thoughts on ends posted by Duster on May 11, 2014 at 18:00:56
        
        the top plating coat be more subject to the often bandied about term "skin effect". Seems to me that the lower frequencies would easily penetrate the top layers and enter the base metal. IIRC, it was none other than MIT founder Bruce Brisson who told me that a 20 Hz wavelength would penetrate about 1/2 inch into a solid cable, so that the base metal of any cable or end was still quite critical for maintaining the lower frequency waveform integrity.
        
        He claimed the reflections often created issues in cable design but that no one in their right mind would be using solid copper rod.. {atric's filing should in theory help the lower frequency spectrum. I'll have to go back and revisit the idea....Been lazy recently.
        
        I do notice this effect with silver plated wire. Thickness of the silver plate can change the sound quite a bit. Too thin a plate and the cable sounds bright. The thicker the silver plate on copper, the better the cable sounds: less bright and fuller. Since silver costs considerably more than copper, though, most companies employ a rather thin silver plate.
        
        Again YMMV and FWIW
        
        RE: Wouldn't - Duster 08:52:49 05/12/14 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Wouldn't posted by unclestu on May 11, 2014 at 23:21:11
        
        Here's a couple of George Cardas quotes.
        
        See link:
        
        http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=tweaks&m=164528 (Open in New Window)
        
        High - unclestu 22:49:00 05/12/14 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Wouldn't posted by Duster on May 12, 2014 at 08:52:49
        
        current preamp outputs are available on some models. Cardas, if you notice, does not define at what point current becomes only skin effect, at least for audio signal.
        
        There was a company based in the Pacific Northwest. Winston Ma, IIRC, was associated with the distribution of many esoteric audiophile items, and they had a solid copper RCA jack (Italian sounding name, IIRC). It was simply huge, the size of a 50 caliber shell and casing, IIRC. Apparently the issue was that making the RCA center out of copper was easy and fairly strong. Making the negative connection was much more difficult because the copper was so soft it deformed fairly easy, making it easy for the jack to make a poor contact.
        
        Also if you peruse some of the latest RCA's, many have copper center pins.
    - Enid Lunley was the ultimate tweaker/tinkerer - rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com 16:30:54 05/11/14 (3)
      She tried things and found things that worked.
      
      Instead of pontificating about what won't work without even giving it a try she was in the vanguard of thinking about how things worked and coming up with ways to make them work better.
      
      I use her thinking process every time I do anything to a component in my system.
      
      She, like me, did not have unlimited funds to join the component of the month club so she made what she had sound as good as it could.
      
      I loved it when she combined forces with Peter Moncrief who had a great ability describing what should happen with audio components.
      
      I think I had heard she died - but I cannot vouch. Either way her ideas are alive and her efforts missed.
      - Well-stated (nt) - Duster 17:51:15 05/11/14 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Enid Lunley was the ultimate tweaker/tinkerer posted by rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com on May 11, 2014 at 16:30:54
        
        nt
        
        RE: Some further thoughts on Enid. - May Belt 23:11:30 05/11/14 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Well-stated (nt) posted by Duster on May 11, 2014 at 17:51:15
        
        > > > "You first railed against unclestu, and now you target Norman M in this thread for simply posting their POVs.
        
        I suggest keeping things cooler when responding to posts unless you actually want to start a flame war in AA." < < <
        
        Duster. Unclestu made the comment ""Of course that was quite a while back and she unfortunately was sort of laughed out of the Audio business." Confirming that the reason why Enid stopped writing and being involved in audio was "unfortunately because she was laughed out of the Audio business".
        
        And yet, Norman M continued with the "laughing" !!!! As though it had been quite an acceptable approach back then and there was nothing wrong with carrying on with it now.
        
        Unclestu was actually making the point that Enid has so many times been shown to be right with her descriptions of "Gremlins in the listening environment". Unclestu actually apologised to Enid for laughing at her back then !!!!
        
        Yes. I do challenge people's point of view if I find it unworthy. I didn't see a smily face or an attempt at a smiley face at the end of Norman M's comment. And I usually explain why I am taking the trouble to challenge.
        
        Seriously, Duster, IF positioning the water faucet N/S, E/W and positions in between and in doing so it gave differences in the sound, then for someone involved in seriously listening it WAS significant and WAS worth reporting, because it pointed to something 'going on' in the listening environment !!
        
        Some 30 years on from Enid writing what she was writing Unclestu knows as well as I do just what is NOT now "outrageously funny" (laughable) !!! And this is presumably why he offered his apologies to her retrospectively.
        
        I never challenge Unclestu's listening experiences. What I do challenge are many of his interpretations as to WHY the sound changes after he has done what he has done !!
        
        Jon Risch is correct in his :-
        
        > > > "What if changing the direction of the faucet arm did ACTUALLY CHANGE THINGS?" < < <
        
        Is such as Norman M with his :-
        
        > > > " I would have concluded that my head/ears weren't precisely in the same position each time, or I was mistaken and try to forget about it, (but definitely not have it written up in TAS). " < < <
        
        Suggesting that Enid should have kept silent about what she could 'hear', even though that was exactly what she, as an audio journalist, was all about ??
        
        Regards,
        May Belt,
        Manufacturer.
        
        RE: Some further thoughts on Enid. - Duster 08:42:23 05/12/14 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Some further thoughts on Enid. posted by May Belt on May 11, 2014 at 23:11:30
        
        Show a little respect and don't quote a deleted AA post. You should know better than to quote a retraction.
    - RE: Some further thoughts on ends - Norman M 16:10:13 05/10/14 (7)
      "Of course that was quite a while back and she unfortunately was sort of laughed out of the Audio business. Many of her pronouncements turned out to be correct when I have gotten the nerve to try them, however...."
      
      Well, don't you think how the direction of her kitchen's water faucet in an adjacent room affected the sound she heard was funny?
      - RE: Some further thoughts on enid - May Belt 03:46:26 05/11/14 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Some further thoughts on ends posted by Norman M on May 10, 2014 at 16:10:13
        
        > > > "Well, don't you think how the direction of her kitchen's water faucet in an adjacent room affected the sound she heard was funny?" < < <
        
        Norman, it may have appeared funny at initial reading back in 1987 but what would you want her to do ? Keep absolutely silent ?
        
        Enid was employed to write, for a Hi Fi magazine, her experiences on what could and did affect her 'sound'. So, she systematically identified what she referred to as Gremlins in her listening environment which had an adverse effect on her 'sound' and then described ways she had tried to 'deal with' those Gremlins. You are only looking at it from a reader's point of view - why don't you do the exercise of putting yourself in her shoes and think about how YOU would have dealt with the whole subject back in 1987 ? AND, just how you would like the subject to be dealt with NOW - in 2014.
        
        Imagine you are 'Norman the Scribe', writing articles describing your experiences of listening to music. YOU find that repositioning the kitchen's water faucet or (if my memory serves me correctly) placing a towel over the said water faucet in the kitchen improved your sound, what would you do - keep silent because people might laugh or mock you ?
        
        If you found that a crogenically 'treated' CD sounded better than a non treated one, would you write about it or would you keep silent ?
        
        If you found that applying a particular chemical to the label side of a CD or to the labels of vinyl discs gave an improvement in the sound, would you write about it or would you keep silent for fear of being laughed at ?
        
        If you found that applying a colour to the edge of CDs gave an improvement in the sound, would you write about it or would you keep silent for fear of being laughed at ?
        
        If you found that applying a demagnetiser to LPs and CDs gave an improvement in the sound, would you write about it or would you keep silent for fear of being laughed at ?
        
        Regarding that last one, after READING of various audio journalists' experiences, one member of the audio profession actually wrote a letter to the Consumer Electronics Association (CEA) Insinuating fraud surrounding the Furutech CD demagnetiser.
        
        To Quote from that person's posting of what he wrote :-
        
        > > > "I'm working on an article for a major audio magazine about fraud in marketing for audio products. I noticed you gave an award to the Furutech CD "demagnetizer" and I'm wondering on what basis you determined this is an award-winning product. As best I can tell this device is pure snake oil with no basis in science. So please forgive such a direct and possibly rude sounding question, but did they pay you for this award? " < < <
        
        If you found that positioning some of the tiny ART devices in the listening room gave an improvement in the sound, would YOU write about them or would you keep silent ?
        
        If you found that positioning such as the Schumann resonator device, the Less Loss device, the Stein Music Harmonizers in a listening room gave improvements in the sound, would you write about them or would you keep silent - - knowing that you would get such responses as :-
        
        > > > "Interesting?
        
        Nah. It's just another dalliance brought forth by the mentally ill for the mentally ill and which does nothing more than saddle this industry with yet further embarrassment.
        
        That Stereophile of all publications should brand it as "intriguing" in their show report is truly sad." < < <
        
        Enid was nothing if not courageous. But they still got to her in the end !! Over 25 years on and the audio industry in general is still not prepared to come to terms with "Gremlins in the listening environment" !!
        
        Regards,
        May Belt,
        Manufacturer.
        
        RE: Some further thoughts on enid - Norman M 07:58:39 05/11/14 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Some further thoughts on enid posted by May Belt on May 11, 2014 at 03:46:26
        
        I was only pointing to the water faucet phenomenon as being (outrageously) funny. A towel over the faucet might only have been a little bit 'funny', but she wrote that if the faucet pointed N/S, E/W and positions in between it produced differences in the sound heard in her adjacent listening room. In reality if I had gotten up from listening seat numerous times adjusting the water faucet's precise position, then possibly hearing differences in the sound, I would have concluded that my head/ears weren't precisely in the same position each time, or I was mistaken and try to forget about it, (but definitely not have it written up in TAS).
        
        Here's a scary thought - Jon Risch 19:51:33 05/11/14 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Some further thoughts on enid posted by Norman M on May 11, 2014 at 07:58:39
        
        What if changing the direction of the faucet arm did ACTUALLY CHANGE THINGS?
        
        I can think of several EM/RFI kinda changes off hand.
        
        A water faucet is nominally grounded through the cold water pipes, etc., but what if that ground was less than ideal? What if the plumbing in her house/apartment was NOT grounded at all?
        
        Altering the spatial location and angle of a faucet arm would then change it's relationship to RF energy, and how it interacted with same.
        
        If the pipes WERE grounded, changing the direction/angle would change the location of a ground rod extended in space. If it were between an RF source, and her playback system, then altering the faucet geometry would also alter the amount and details of the RF energy visited upon the playback system.
        
        In one case the faucet arm is acting as an antenna, in the other, a shield. Of course, there is an infinite number of variations between the two, involving simultaneous antenna/shielding actions.
        
        These are just two trivial examples I can think of off of the top of my head, without invoking quantum physics, or more involved scenario's, such as corroded copper oxide pipes and rectification issues, etc..
        
        Perhaps Enid wasn't so "out there" after all.
        
        Jon Risch
        
        RE: Here's a scary thought - Norman M 08:48:42 05/12/14 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here's a scary thought posted by Jon Risch on May 11, 2014 at 19:51:33
        
        So do you then contend that it's impossible to listen to 'everything but the kitchen sink'?
        
        True story.... - unclestu 17:04:24 05/12/14 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here's a scary thought posted by Norman M on May 12, 2014 at 08:48:42
        
        a customer who lives in a high RF area, where Rf was so high first generation Yamaha CD players would not function because the rf would cause the cd to skip erratically from receiving the RF to the logic circuit, reported that he could hear music from his bathroom one morning while washing his face. Standing up the music disappeared. Bending over the sink he realized he was hearing music from the faucet, simply picking up RF and playing it back......
        
        FWIW
        
        After re-readingd some of her columns not long ago ... - Dave Pogue 05:01:07 05/12/14 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here's a scary thought posted by Jon Risch on May 11, 2014 at 19:51:33
        
        ... it's not hard to see why she was so easily dismissed, and not simply because she was operating in more "primitive" times. Amazing what she could hear through her Maggie MG-II speakers (mine were far less revealing).
        
        IIRC - unclestu 20:31:46 05/11/14 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here's a scary thought posted by Jon Risch on May 11, 2014 at 19:51:33
        
        she used the water pipes to ground her system. But that was long ago and I lost all my back issues of TAS
    - RE: Remember Enid Lumley. - May Belt 05:45:47 05/10/14 (1)
      Unclestu, in reply to your comment :-
      
      > > > "Remember Enid Lumley, the tweaker who once wrote for TAS?............. Of course that was quite a while back and she unfortunately was sort of laughed out of the Audio business. Many of her pronouncements turned out to be correct when I have gotten the nerve to try them, however....
      
      To Enid, wherever she may be, my apologies for laughing...." < < <
      
      I have said before and I will say again. In my opinion anyone who mocked Enid Lumley back in the 1987s should hang their heads in shame. Peter and I did not have contact with Enid until she was writing her final articles on her general theme of what she referred to as "Gremlins in the listening environment". She wrote to us in 1987 after she had heard what improvements we had achieved with a budget Grado XTE + 1 cartridge.
      
      To quote from her letter :-
      
      > > > "Depending on it's price, I would heartily recommend it, especially for orchestral, choral or Rock music lovers. Could you tell me what your price is and how people could go about purchasing one ?" < < <
      
      And :-
      
      > > > "Certainly you and Peter are to be commended for your realizations that gremlin problems exist.........audio needs your kind of people.......I have been fiddling around a lot with all the things you have sent. Certainly all of them effect an audible difference any deaf person should hear" < < <
      
      How I wish she had been able to continue with her experimenting and writing. That was over 25 years ago and the world of audio has still not come to terms with what Enid referred to as "Gremlins" affecting the 'sound' and what we are able to resolve regarding that 'sound' correctly !!
      
      Regards,
      May Belt,
      Manufacturer.
      - Enid - unclestu 14:50:48 05/10/14 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Remember Enid Lumley. posted by May Belt on May 10, 2014 at 05:45:47
        
        was only human. Some of her pronouncements were very wrong, at least in my experience. I had an opportunity to sit behind her at a CES and she stated several things about the demo which were completely wrong (switching from digital to analog when in fact nothing had been switched).....
        Also Enid provided explanations where it was possible and explained things fairly thoroughly so that others could replicate her conclusions. Big difference if you are attempting to compare yourself to Enid. Enid had nothing to sell but shared her information freely.
        As for hearing differences, I have stated in the past that I have heard some differences with various of your products. Sorry, photos in the frig did absolutely nothing.
        Prismatic foil I heard but I can replicate by using Gerber Scientific diffraction foil (readily available at screen supply houses and fishing stores for use in making lures) and degaussing the foil before application. The zip tie color I can hear also but again degaussing the ties works similarly well and the color question is very much related to the colors of wire insulation.
        YMMV of course, and FWIW
        
        Edits: 05/11/14 05/11/14
    - RE: Some further thoughts on ends - mehrdadb_gd 03:07:48 05/10/14 (0)
      Hi Stu
      Sadly seems Enid passed away ! !
      
      http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=53745&GRid=28314103&
      
      tweaker
  - As an aside - unclestu 19:42:14 05/09/14 (1)
    the issue of rhodium I got straight from George Cardas at a CES. His comments made me rethink ends considerably or, perhaps more precisely, the nature of the mating surfaces. Gold was popularized and is the de facto standard simply because advertising had it that gold never tarnishes. That much is definitely true, but it has much higher resistance than silver or copper.
    Thus, we have another factor, corrosion, being thrown into the equation. Depending on your local environment that can be a minor irritant but in some locales it is a major issue (close to a sea shore or freeway with all the sulphurous traffic dust).
    Cardas products are rather interesting. Their RCA ends can be had in rhodium, gold or silver plate all over the identical base plug. It is not in the scope of this thread, but all sound different (I have tried all of the Cardas offerings). Rhodium had the most extended top end in my trials.
    YMMV and FWIW, of course
    
    PS One other observation. Some modern ends have gold plating so thin it basically peels off after a couple of insertions. Other plating is thicker but still so thin that gold plating is literally porous and corrosion will still set in despite the gold plating. You often see this on ends which develop white or green spots from the base metal corroding through the gold top plate over time.
    I think this one may be the most insidious because then the top plate (gold) may literally be separating from the base metal, degrading the metal to metal interface.
    
    Edits: 05/09/14
    - RE: Gold plating - beautox 16:18:50 05/10/14 (0)
      I have in on good authority that NASA demands no gold plating on anything going into space. Gold poisons solder joints, even relatively few molecules, and will cause it to fail at some point.

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