Tweakers' Asylum

Posted by Jim P (A) on April 29, 2009 at 09:56:34

Well, I almost sold my stereo,everything. No component or power conditioner no matter how good would sound average in my room. I was somewhat depressed to tell the truth. A fair amount of money and the sound stunk,at least to me. Why did a cheaper stereo,much cheaper sound great at the shop? Acoustical treatments in the listening rooms! They are much more important than I thought. My salesmen(good salon) were extremely helpful and by my diagram of our room he directed me to a number of resources to help. As an experiment I looked at treated rooms and,it sounds bad and looks even worse,I used down comforters in the corners and used blankets behind the stereo and on the sides of the room. I treated the living room with quasi ceiling diffusers(stole the idea from some concert halls). I live in a modular home so I tried to make a cheap plynthe for each speaker. My floor is elevated from the ground, no concrete floors. I made a 2'X 3' by 1" thick MDF sandwich with sorbathane sheets in between,R/C hobby shops carry it cheap. Took me about 2 hours. The living room now resembles a really big indoor tent or padded room, I mean this IS the Audio Asylum! The noise floor went WAY down. The bass was deep and strong,the upper bass suckout(hope that's the term) is eliminated and was there in spades and details popped out, and I'm sure were still way off but what a huge improvement I've never heard my Cd's right,ever!! Yeah, pretty ghetto looking but I wanted to know if this was really the room or too many years playing viola in different orchestras. Now my wife and I are going to make most of the panels and corner bass trapps and maybe a little professional help,again the asylum bit.LOL! I never understood you need to "buy" room treatment along with all the equipment. I wish I had known that sooner but thank goodness we figured it out. Now my stereo sounds magical. Treat your rooms! Most inmates here likely know this already but I'm still learning.

Jim P

Sorry as too the length

Musical Fidelity X-RAYv8 CDP and triple X power supply
Aragon 24K pre-amp with Mondial Designs power supply
Rotel power conditioner
Rotel RB-1080 200WPC
Paradigm Studio 100 V.4
Audioquest Rocket 44 single biwire speaker cable
Audioquest Diamondback interconnects

Edits: 04/29/09   04/29/09

• Acoustic Panels Question.....DIY - Dynaudio_Rules 05:25:15 05/05/09 (0)
  In Reply to: RE: Almost quit hobby due to room acoustics! long-ish posted by Jim P on April 29, 2009 at 09:56:34

  I have seen two types of Panels...one is framed OC703 the other is wood [or some other material] backed OC703. Any advantage on sonics that either method has over the other???
  
  
  
  
  Karma Means Never Having To Say You're Sorry 音楽は力です。
  
  

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• You might want to read this - Jon Risch 16:55:49 04/30/09 (1)
  In Reply to: RE: Almost quit hobby due to room acoustics! long-ish posted by Jim P on April 29, 2009 at 09:56:34

  See:
  http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/a1.htm
  The Risch DIY Acoustic Treatment Note
  
  This has basic instructions on how to construct high performance wall panels, true bass traps (not just wall panels that are called bass traps), and where to deploy them.
  
  I have other info listed at:
  http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/a.htm
  
  and below, I copy my Acoustics Biblio, with all the latest.
  
  ****************************************************
  NEW!
  http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/447013.html
  covers fabric, and cheap retail wall panels.
  
  NEW!
  Covers the differences between the original and the SQ&D traps.
  http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/141939.html
  
  ****************************
  
  The original Risch DIY Acoustic Treatment Note:
  http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/a1.htm
  
  Common Problems In DIY Bass Trap Construction:
  http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/29191.html
  
  the original post where I reveal the latest Super Quick & Dirty easy bass traps recipe:
  http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/15737.html
  and petew's post where he goes into detail on what he did.
  http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/general/messages/70817.html
  
  http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/17498.html
  PeteW's directions of building classic bass traps w/wire.
  Andrew Chasin's description of his build-up:
  http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/110285.html
  
  Comments on effectiveness of JR DIY Wall Panels:
  http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/122117.html
  
  How to measure the effect of a bass trap:
  http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/rives/messages/1041.html
  
  Pic of Wall Panel:
  http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/wp.htm
  pics and diagrams.
  http://mysite.verizon.net/vze22yzp/id4.html
  http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/view.mpl?UserImages=31994&session=
  
  Pics of Bass Trap construction (not finished/covered):
  http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/basstrap.htm
  AND
  http://geocities.com/waycoolaudio/basstraps
  
  EQing a room, ie. you can't:
  http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/17541.html
  
  EGG CARTON INFO
  http://www.acousticsfirst.com/eggc.htm
  
  COmparison of LENERD, mini-traps, and two homemade absorbers:
  http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=536
  
  The problems with steam pipe insulation for bass traps:
  http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/57035.html
  
  http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/6425.html
  AND
  http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/13535.html
  AND
  http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/3771.html
  
  DIY Diffussor URL:
  http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/1725.html
  
  Dogloo Diffusor:
  http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/69035.html
  
  Review of DIY Acoustic Treatements ala JMR:
  http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/13654.html
  
  Simple, basic diffusors that look real nice:
  http://www.corefurniture.com/diffusortop.htm
  
  DIY Abfusor post:
  http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/13048
  
  DIY Room Lens clone (last half of page):
  http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/a3.htm
  
  DIY Corner Tune/Room Tune:
  http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/7888.html
  LATEST:
  http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/15/153323.html
  
  Posts on constructing a DIY Roomlens
  Alternate construction:
  http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/307.html
  the base:
  http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/8679.html
  http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/13630.html
  
  3D DIY Roomlens (David Aiken):
  http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/99714.html
  and
  http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/102957.html
  
  Very basic room treatment issues, with pics and diagrams:
  http://arts.ucsc.edu/ems/music/tech_background/TE-14/teces_14.html
  
  http://www.asc-studio-acoustics.com/acoustic_basics.htm
  
  First article by J. Peter Moncrieff on how to place ASC tubetraps.
  http://acousticsciences.com/articles/iar85.htm
  
  Second article by J. peter Moncrieff on ASC TubeTraps
  http://acousticsciences.com/articles/iar89.htm
  
  FR of bass traps at ASC
  http://www.acousticsciences.com/tubetrap.htm
  
  Absorption of bass traps at ASC (near bottom):
  http://www.acousticsciences.com/tubetrap.htm
  http://www.acousticsciences.com/pdf/tubetrap.pdf
  
  PDF on ASC bass traps Acoustic circuit:
  http://www.acousticsciences.com/tubetrap.pdf
  
  Source for OC 703/705 panels:
  http://www.realtraps.com/fiberglass.htm BAD
  BAD
  
  Fireproofing treatment:
  http://www.flameseal.com/fabdescN.htm
  
  
  Acoustic CLOTH Sources:
  
  Guilford of Maine Fabric
  http://www.guilfordofmaine.com/
  http://www.cinemadesignbuild.com/store/subcategory.asp?CategoryID=6&SubCategoryID=1
  http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/products/fabrics/guilford.asp
  
  Acoustone Speaker Grille Cloth
  http://www.acoustonegrillecloth.com/about.htm
  http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/products/fabrics/grille_cloth.asp
  
  Others:
  http://www.alphasoundandlighting.com/proaudio/acoustic_speaker_fabric.html
  
  
  ACOUSTICS CALCULATOR
  http://www.mhsoft.nl/helmholtzabsorber.asp
  
  
  Jon Risch
  
  

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  • RE: You might want to read this - Jim P 09:36:22 05/04/09 (0)
    In Reply to: RE: You might want to read this posted by Jon Risch on April 30, 2009 at 16:55:49

    OH man thank you!!!! My wife are planning some ideas and THANK YOU for all the info, good grief! I really thought I knew something about audio system setup,whatever, I'm just realizing now how inportant the room is!
    amazing that the older I get the less I know!
    
    Jim P
    
    

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• Any recommendations for this room - Dynaudio_Rules 16:25:17 04/29/09 (11)
  In Reply to: RE: Almost quit hobby due to room acoustics! long-ish posted by Jim P on April 29, 2009 at 09:56:34

  
  
  
  
  Karma Means Never Having To Say You're Sorry 音楽は力です。
  
  

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  • Room Acoustics Treatments On Order - Dynaudio_Rules 05:40:30 05/04/09 (0)
    In Reply to: RE: Any recommendations for this room posted by Dynaudio_Rules on April 29, 2009 at 16:25:17

    Should be here by the weekend...will post pics and comment of sound difference after install.
    
    
    
    Karma Means Never Having To Say You're Sorry 音楽は力です。
    
    

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  • RE: Any recommendations for this room - John Swenson 12:50:01 05/01/09 (2)
    In Reply to: RE: Any recommendations for this room posted by Dynaudio_Rules on April 29, 2009 at 16:25:17

    There are lots here that are giving you advice on specific acoustical treatments, but I would like to recommend a few simple things that are more "normal". One of the big issues with a room like this are the flat perpendicular walls, you get major resonances and waves bouncing back and forth. A big help is just to break things up a bit.
    
    Simple things like putting pictures on the wall. Put some plants around.Not just little tiny ones but you can put in fairly big things like a rubber tree plant, a small ornamental tree etc. Put in a shelf with various art objects. Try and randomize things a little so you don't have perfectly regular structures.
    
    Simple things like this can go a long way towards taming such a stark room. And it makes it look more interesting too!
    
    THEN you can go for specific acoustical treatments to work on specific issues.
    
    John S.
    
    

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    • What John fails to mention… - David Aiken 13:06:35 05/01/09 (1)
      In Reply to: RE: Any recommendations for this room posted by John Swenson on May 01, 2009 at 12:50:01

      when he says "And it makes it look more interesting too!" is that we spend a lot of time in our listening rooms. I think that if it's a room that is inviting, that we feel happy walking into and feel happy to spend time in, even without the system playing, then we're more relaxed and in a better mood when we listen and that will always translate into more enjoyment of our music. We all know how we don't enjoy listening if we're "not in the mood" and how we can really get into it during those times when we're really "in the mood" so doing things which help set us in a good mood when we walk into the room is always going to be beneficial, even without room treatment.
      
      Other things which can help acoustically but which aren't obvious are heavier curtains on the windows, and bookcases full of books if you're a reader. Instead of pictures, especially if they are framed behind glass, you can also consider hanging fabric objects like tapestries, quilts, or even an attractive rug.
      
      And the most effective non-treatment thing you can do with acoustic effects is always working with your speaker and listening position placement.
      
      
      
      
      David Aiken
      
      

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      • RE: What John fails to mention… - John Swenson 18:34:09 05/01/09 (0)
        In Reply to: RE: What John fails to mention… posted by David Aiken on May 01, 2009 at 13:06:35

        And for the books in the shelf don't line them all up, have some sticking out a little further than others. You can do this with CD and LP racks as well. If you really want to get fancy you can implement one of those fancy diffusers by carefully arrangeing the CDs or LPs in the rack and it doesn't cost you anything!
        
        My wife is a quilter and I had her make a couple quilts for "wall hangings" that are hung in appropriate locations. They add a lot of color and interest to the room as well as making it sound better.
        
        Then there are the telescopes on one wall, but thats another story...
        
        John S.
        
        

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  • Stop using your amp as a footstool (nt) - Sondek 05:51:24 05/01/09 (0)
    In Reply to: RE: Any recommendations for this room posted by Dynaudio_Rules on April 29, 2009 at 16:25:17

    
    
    

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  • RE: Any recommendations for this room - Paul_A 20:40:19 04/30/09 (0)
    In Reply to: RE: Any recommendations for this room posted by Dynaudio_Rules on April 29, 2009 at 16:25:17

    I don't know what the room shape is behind the camera, but if it is a simple rectangle, you might benefit from large pieces of furniture against the walls. These could help break up standing waves. It looks like the width of the room is about eight feet. If that is also the height of the room, the wall to floor and wall to wall standing waves will reinforce eachother. If the length of the room is about twelve or sixteen feet, the eight foot nodes will be reinforced even more. Absorbtion panels in the middle of the side walls might help with that, or if you really want to put in some effort to correct the problem, tuned helmholtz resonators could neutralize the peaks.
    
    

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  • Depends on what result you want… - David Aiken 13:06:05 04/30/09 (1)
    In Reply to: RE: Any recommendations for this room posted by Dynaudio_Rules on April 29, 2009 at 16:25:17

    There's a tendency for people to think of room treatment as a pretty uniform "one approach fits all" sort of thing but it isn't. For example, some people like precise imaging while others are distracted by imaging and prefer to avoid it. How you treat the room depends on what kind of result you're chasing. Apart from that you also want to address any specific room problems/anomalies you have in the process.
    
    Bass traps in the corners will never go astray. Regardless of what you want to achieve, bass traps are pretty much guaranteed to be beneficial. In fact they're probably the one universal recommendation.
    
    Treating the front and rear wall first reflection points will always help with imaging. There's debate about treating the side wall first reflection points. Floyd Toole recommends leaving them untreated on the basis that research shows that most people prefer the sense of spaciousness those reflections add to the sound but he also points out that there are people, especially many musicians, who prefer the sound with those points treated. It's worth experimenting with treatment there and going with what you prefer.
    
    There's a lot of argument about absorption vs diffusion. In a small room you will not achieve a diffuse soundfield but that doesn't mean that diffusion can't help. The big problem with diffusers in a small room, however, is that they cause sound problems if you sit too close to them, just as sitting too close to a speaker can cause problems. The basic rule of thumb seems to be that you need a minimum of 10' between you and a diffuser in order to avoid those problems though there are some products which claim that they can be placed closer than that. In my experience diffusion will tend to work against precise imaging so I'd tend to go for absorption treatments if you want precise imaging and to only consider diffusion if you've got a large enough room to put the necessary distance between you and the diffusers and also are less concerned with imaging.
    
    If you use absorption, make sure that the materials you use provide wide band absorption. That tends to require thick layers of material, a minimum of 3" or so, and some space between the material and the wall, around 4-8" or so. Thin layers of foam or other materials placed directly on the wall don't provide broad band absorption and tend to work on the higher frequencies only. That tends to result in a duller, less lively sound and is probably the cause of most criticisms of room treatment. Good broad band absorption doesn't change the tonal character of the overall sound.
    
    
    
    
    David Aiken
    
    

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    • Strongly agree that damping side wall reflections is more personal taste - lancelot 13:17:10 04/30/09 (0)
      In Reply to: RE: Depends on what result you want… posted by David Aiken on April 30, 2009 at 13:06:05

      I'm always rather suprised to see so many ( not David who knows better) automatically suggesting damping side wall reflections as an inherently good thing to do.
      
      Depending on your loudspeaker, room and taste regarding spaciousness vs precise imaging, it is either a good or very poor choice.
      
      

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  • RE: Any recommendations for this room - Jim P 08:13:00 04/30/09 (0)
    In Reply to: RE: Any recommendations for this room posted by Dynaudio_Rules on April 29, 2009 at 16:25:17

    First let me say I only have a few days of limited understanding of room correction and I'd be most likely wrong. There are people here that have a very firm grasp of room treatment. But side panels, back panels behind the listening areaand behind the speakers and corner bass traps. It really makes a montrous difference. I hope I could help even a little. I'd love to learn more about acoustic analysis,time is all it takes,grumble grumble.
    
    

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  • RE: Any recommendations for this room - Ozzy 02:16:27 04/30/09 (1)
    In Reply to: RE: Any recommendations for this room posted by Dynaudio_Rules on April 29, 2009 at 16:25:17

    Tube traps
    
    Window treatments
    
    Corner tunes
    
    Damp first side wall reflections
    Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
    - Winston Churchill
    
    
    

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    • RE: Any recommendations for this room - Jim P 08:14:46 04/30/09 (0)
      In Reply to: RE: Any recommendations for this room posted by Ozzy on April 30, 2009 at 02:16:27

      Good call on the window treatments forgot that one and supposedly pretty darn important!!
      
      Jim P
      
      

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• Want to post imags of yr room before & after treatment? (nt) - cheap-Jack 11:09:53 04/29/09 (5)
  In Reply to: RE: Almost quit hobby due to room acoustics! long-ish posted by Jim P on April 29, 2009 at 09:56:34

  .
  
  

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  • RE: Want to post imags of yr room before & after treatment? (nt) - Jim P 12:07:48 04/29/09 (4)
    In Reply to: RE: Want to post imags of yr room before & after treatment? (nt) posted by cheap-Jack on April 29, 2009 at 11:09:53

    I'm sure everyone will think I B crazy but yeah I will post some pics when were done. I'll post pics of the original room, the current padded cell as it sits now and what my wife and I can build together, she loves audio! WAF is easy with her. I've seen the $3500 room treatment kits and thought I can do it much cheaper,hopefully! Good idea, it'll be much nicer when my wife and I finish it and we'll post the results.
    
    Jim P.
    
    

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    • RE: Want to post imags of yr room before & after treatment? (nt) - Jim P 17:47:35 04/29/09 (0)
      In Reply to: RE: Want to post imags of yr room before & after treatment? (nt) posted by Jim P on April 29, 2009 at 12:07:48

      OMG you guy's crack me up! We'll get this finished as soon as they let me out of my cell!
      
      

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    • I Envy you too - Dynaudio_Rules 16:22:51 04/29/09 (1)
      In Reply to: RE: Want to post imags of yr room before & after treatment? (nt) posted by Jim P on April 29, 2009 at 12:07:48

      My wife has no interest in audio what so ever....a clock radio is just fine with her.
      
      
      
      Karma Means Never Having To Say You're Sorry 音楽は力です。
      
      

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      • I still love her so much.. - cheap-Jack 07:50:38 05/04/09 (0)
        In Reply to: RE: I Envy you too posted by Dynaudio_Rules on April 29, 2009 at 16:22:51

        Hi.
        
        as she likes cooking as much as I love my audio.
        
        c-J
        
        

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    • I envy you... - cheap-Jack 12:48:54 04/29/09 (0)
      In Reply to: RE: Want to post imags of yr room before & after treatment? (nt) posted by Jim P on April 29, 2009 at 12:07:48

      Hi.
      
      Your wife love HIFi like you. My wife walks away as soon as I put on the music.
      
      That's why I have my audio den built down the basement of my house.
      Home sweet home for us & the family upstairs & audio sweet audio for me alone down below.
      
      c-J
      
      

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