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Well, I almost sold my stereo,everything. No component or power conditioner no matter how good would sound average in my room. I was somewhat depressed to tell the truth. A fair amount of money and the sound stunk,at least to me. Why did a cheaper stereo,much cheaper sound great at the shop? Acoustical treatments in the listening rooms! They are much more important than I thought. My salesmen(good salon) were extremely helpful and by my diagram of our room he directed me to a number of resources to help. As an experiment I looked at treated rooms and,it sounds bad and looks even worse,I used down comforters in the corners and used blankets behind the stereo and on the sides of the room. I treated the living room with quasi ceiling diffusers(stole the idea from some concert halls). I live in a modular home so I tried to make a cheap plynthe for each speaker. My floor is elevated from the ground, no concrete floors. I made a 2'X 3' by 1" thick MDF sandwich with sorbathane sheets in between,R/C hobby shops carry it cheap. Took me about 2 hours. The living room now resembles a really big indoor tent or padded room, I mean this IS the Audio Asylum! The noise floor went WAY down. The bass was deep and strong,the upper bass suckout(hope that's the term) is eliminated and was there in spades and details popped out, and I'm sure were still way off but what a huge improvement I've never heard my Cd's right,ever!! Yeah, pretty ghetto looking but I wanted to know if this was really the room or too many years playing viola in different orchestras. Now my wife and I are going to make most of the panels and corner bass trapps and maybe a little professional help,again the asylum bit.LOL! I never understood you need to "buy" room treatment along with all the equipment. I wish I had known that sooner but thank goodness we figured it out. Now my stereo sounds magical. Treat your rooms! Most inmates here likely know this already but I'm still learning.Jim P
Sorry as too the length
Musical Fidelity X-RAYv8 CDP and triple X power supply
Aragon 24K pre-amp with Mondial Designs power supply
Rotel power conditioner
Rotel RB-1080 200WPC
Paradigm Studio 100 V.4
Audioquest Rocket 44 single biwire speaker cable
Audioquest Diamondback interconnects
Edits: 04/29/09 04/29/09
I have seen two types of Panels...one is framed OC703 the other is wood [or some other material] backed OC703. Any advantage on sonics that either method has over the other???
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Karma Means Never Having To Say You're Sorry 音楽は力です。
See:
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/a1.htm
The Risch DIY Acoustic Treatment Note
This has basic instructions on how to construct high performance wall panels, true bass traps (not just wall panels that are called bass traps), and where to deploy them.
I have other info listed at:
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/a.htm
and below, I copy my Acoustics Biblio, with all the latest.
****************************************************
NEW!
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/447013.html
covers fabric, and cheap retail wall panels.
NEW!
Covers the differences between the original and the SQ&D traps.
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/141939.html
****************************
The original Risch DIY Acoustic Treatment Note:
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/a1.htm
Common Problems In DIY Bass Trap Construction:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/29191.html
the original post where I reveal the latest Super Quick & Dirty easy bass traps recipe:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/15737.html
and petew's post where he goes into detail on what he did.
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/general/messages/70817.html
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/17498.html
PeteW's directions of building classic bass traps w/wire.
Andrew Chasin's description of his build-up:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/110285.html
Comments on effectiveness of JR DIY Wall Panels:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/122117.html
How to measure the effect of a bass trap:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/rives/messages/1041.html
Pic of Wall Panel:
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/wp.htm
pics and diagrams.
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze22yzp/id4.html
http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/view.mpl?UserImages=31994&session=
Pics of Bass Trap construction (not finished/covered):
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/basstrap.htm
AND
http://geocities.com/waycoolaudio/basstraps
EQing a room, ie. you can't:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/17541.html
EGG CARTON INFO
http://www.acousticsfirst.com/eggc.htm
COmparison of LENERD, mini-traps, and two homemade absorbers:
http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=536
The problems with steam pipe insulation for bass traps:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/57035.html
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/6425.html
AND
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/13535.html
AND
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/3771.html
DIY Diffussor URL:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/1725.html
Dogloo Diffusor:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/69035.html
Review of DIY Acoustic Treatements ala JMR:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/13654.html
Simple, basic diffusors that look real nice:
http://www.corefurniture.com/diffusortop.htm
DIY Abfusor post:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/13048
DIY Room Lens clone (last half of page):
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/a3.htm
DIY Corner Tune/Room Tune:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/7888.html
LATEST:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/15/153323.html
Posts on constructing a DIY Roomlens
Alternate construction:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/307.html
the base:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/8679.html
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/13630.html
3D DIY Roomlens (David Aiken):
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/99714.html
and
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/102957.html
Very basic room treatment issues, with pics and diagrams:
http://arts.ucsc.edu/ems/music/tech_background/TE-14/teces_14.html
http://www.asc-studio-acoustics.com/acoustic_basics.htm
First article by J. Peter Moncrieff on how to place ASC tubetraps.
http://acousticsciences.com/articles/iar85.htm
Second article by J. peter Moncrieff on ASC TubeTraps
http://acousticsciences.com/articles/iar89.htm
FR of bass traps at ASC
http://www.acousticsciences.com/tubetrap.htm
Absorption of bass traps at ASC (near bottom):
http://www.acousticsciences.com/tubetrap.htm
http://www.acousticsciences.com/pdf/tubetrap.pdf
PDF on ASC bass traps Acoustic circuit:
http://www.acousticsciences.com/tubetrap.pdf
Source for OC 703/705 panels:
http://www.realtraps.com/fiberglass.htm BAD
BAD
Fireproofing treatment:
http://www.flameseal.com/fabdescN.htm
Acoustic CLOTH Sources:
Guilford of Maine Fabric
http://www.guilfordofmaine.com/
http://www.cinemadesignbuild.com/store/subcategory.asp?CategoryID=6&SubCategoryID=1
http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/products/fabrics/guilford.asp
Acoustone Speaker Grille Cloth
http://www.acoustonegrillecloth.com/about.htm
http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/products/fabrics/grille_cloth.asp
Others:
http://www.alphasoundandlighting.com/proaudio/acoustic_speaker_fabric.html
ACOUSTICS CALCULATOR
http://www.mhsoft.nl/helmholtzabsorber.asp
Jon Risch
OH man thank you!!!! My wife are planning some ideas and THANK YOU for all the info, good grief! I really thought I knew something about audio system setup,whatever, I'm just realizing now how inportant the room is!
amazing that the older I get the less I know!
Jim P
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Karma Means Never Having To Say You're Sorry 音楽は力です。
Should be here by the weekend...will post pics and comment of sound difference after install.
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Karma Means Never Having To Say You're Sorry 音楽は力です。
There are lots here that are giving you advice on specific acoustical treatments, but I would like to recommend a few simple things that are more "normal". One of the big issues with a room like this are the flat perpendicular walls, you get major resonances and waves bouncing back and forth. A big help is just to break things up a bit.
Simple things like putting pictures on the wall. Put some plants around.Not just little tiny ones but you can put in fairly big things like a rubber tree plant, a small ornamental tree etc. Put in a shelf with various art objects. Try and randomize things a little so you don't have perfectly regular structures.
Simple things like this can go a long way towards taming such a stark room. And it makes it look more interesting too!
THEN you can go for specific acoustical treatments to work on specific issues.
John S.
when he says "And it makes it look more interesting too!" is that we spend a lot of time in our listening rooms. I think that if it's a room that is inviting, that we feel happy walking into and feel happy to spend time in, even without the system playing, then we're more relaxed and in a better mood when we listen and that will always translate into more enjoyment of our music. We all know how we don't enjoy listening if we're "not in the mood" and how we can really get into it during those times when we're really "in the mood" so doing things which help set us in a good mood when we walk into the room is always going to be beneficial, even without room treatment.
Other things which can help acoustically but which aren't obvious are heavier curtains on the windows, and bookcases full of books if you're a reader. Instead of pictures, especially if they are framed behind glass, you can also consider hanging fabric objects like tapestries, quilts, or even an attractive rug.
And the most effective non-treatment thing you can do with acoustic effects is always working with your speaker and listening position placement.
David Aiken
And for the books in the shelf don't line them all up, have some sticking out a little further than others. You can do this with CD and LP racks as well. If you really want to get fancy you can implement one of those fancy diffusers by carefully arrangeing the CDs or LPs in the rack and it doesn't cost you anything!
My wife is a quilter and I had her make a couple quilts for "wall hangings" that are hung in appropriate locations. They add a lot of color and interest to the room as well as making it sound better.
Then there are the telescopes on one wall, but thats another story...
John S.
I don't know what the room shape is behind the camera, but if it is a simple rectangle, you might benefit from large pieces of furniture against the walls. These could help break up standing waves. It looks like the width of the room is about eight feet. If that is also the height of the room, the wall to floor and wall to wall standing waves will reinforce eachother. If the length of the room is about twelve or sixteen feet, the eight foot nodes will be reinforced even more. Absorbtion panels in the middle of the side walls might help with that, or if you really want to put in some effort to correct the problem, tuned helmholtz resonators could neutralize the peaks.
There's a tendency for people to think of room treatment as a pretty uniform "one approach fits all" sort of thing but it isn't. For example, some people like precise imaging while others are distracted by imaging and prefer to avoid it. How you treat the room depends on what kind of result you're chasing. Apart from that you also want to address any specific room problems/anomalies you have in the process.
Bass traps in the corners will never go astray. Regardless of what you want to achieve, bass traps are pretty much guaranteed to be beneficial. In fact they're probably the one universal recommendation.
Treating the front and rear wall first reflection points will always help with imaging. There's debate about treating the side wall first reflection points. Floyd Toole recommends leaving them untreated on the basis that research shows that most people prefer the sense of spaciousness those reflections add to the sound but he also points out that there are people, especially many musicians, who prefer the sound with those points treated. It's worth experimenting with treatment there and going with what you prefer.
There's a lot of argument about absorption vs diffusion. In a small room you will not achieve a diffuse soundfield but that doesn't mean that diffusion can't help. The big problem with diffusers in a small room, however, is that they cause sound problems if you sit too close to them, just as sitting too close to a speaker can cause problems. The basic rule of thumb seems to be that you need a minimum of 10' between you and a diffuser in order to avoid those problems though there are some products which claim that they can be placed closer than that. In my experience diffusion will tend to work against precise imaging so I'd tend to go for absorption treatments if you want precise imaging and to only consider diffusion if you've got a large enough room to put the necessary distance between you and the diffusers and also are less concerned with imaging.
If you use absorption, make sure that the materials you use provide wide band absorption. That tends to require thick layers of material, a minimum of 3" or so, and some space between the material and the wall, around 4-8" or so. Thin layers of foam or other materials placed directly on the wall don't provide broad band absorption and tend to work on the higher frequencies only. That tends to result in a duller, less lively sound and is probably the cause of most criticisms of room treatment. Good broad band absorption doesn't change the tonal character of the overall sound.
David Aiken
I'm always rather suprised to see so many ( not David who knows better) automatically suggesting damping side wall reflections as an inherently good thing to do.
Depending on your loudspeaker, room and taste regarding spaciousness vs precise imaging, it is either a good or very poor choice.
First let me say I only have a few days of limited understanding of room correction and I'd be most likely wrong. There are people here that have a very firm grasp of room treatment. But side panels, back panels behind the listening areaand behind the speakers and corner bass traps. It really makes a montrous difference. I hope I could help even a little. I'd love to learn more about acoustic analysis,time is all it takes,grumble grumble.
Tube traps
Window treatments
Corner tunes
Damp first side wall reflections
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
Good call on the window treatments forgot that one and supposedly pretty darn important!!
Jim P
.
I'm sure everyone will think I B crazy but yeah I will post some pics when were done. I'll post pics of the original room, the current padded cell as it sits now and what my wife and I can build together, she loves audio! WAF is easy with her. I've seen the $3500 room treatment kits and thought I can do it much cheaper,hopefully! Good idea, it'll be much nicer when my wife and I finish it and we'll post the results.
Jim P.
OMG you guy's crack me up! We'll get this finished as soon as they let me out of my cell!
My wife has no interest in audio what so ever....a clock radio is just fine with her.
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Karma Means Never Having To Say You're Sorry 音楽は力です。
Hi.
as she likes cooking as much as I love my audio.
c-J
Hi.
Your wife love HIFi like you. My wife walks away as soon as I put on the music.
That's why I have my audio den built down the basement of my house.
Home sweet home for us & the family upstairs & audio sweet audio for me alone down below.
c-J
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